Arthur Driscol

Curiouser and curiouser.. http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/5248/qfya.jpg A He 51b with a Arado 68 nose ? Some sort of mock up ?

Here are a few more unusual He 51b photos. http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/8330/s44y.jpg http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8532/4c0r.jpg http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5326/3lge.jpg

Evenin' all, All this talk of propellers got me digging around the interwebz last night looking for some sort of catalogue of Luftwaffe prop types. I was hoping to see if we might more precisely identify some of the prop types and their manufacturers associated with the He 51 but I came up surprisingly empty handed. I wonder if there are any Luftwaffe aficionados out there that might advise us on this matter ? Art

I can't help thinking that the above photo is of a He 49 actually . Note the lack of oval air intakes on the engine front, the lack of oil cooler intake under the nose and the two small underside intakes in front of each of the leading spars of the floats. The exhaust stacks are also much shorter than a typical Heinkel He 51 and the radiator seems to be of a somewhat different design, you might have play with the contrast a bit to see this. Missing also is the small rear underside fin that is present on the He 51b. Images of the He 49 seem to be very rare, these are the only ones that I have seen . Aaaand just to muddy the waters a bit here is a He 51b that seems to have a mixture of traits - short exhaust stubs - no underside fin - a small head rest . Note the shape of the fin, it has a much steeper leading edge than typical He 51s, I wonder if the photo has been retouched ? Art

Simon, That's a fascinating bit of news about the bomb magazine, thank you very much your research . I can't wait to see the technical drawings . It is perhaps not surprising that there were a variety of propellors used on the He 51 when one considers how many different manufacturers there were . According to Tony Wood and Bill Gunston in " Hitlers Luftwaffe " He 51s were manufactured by Ago, Erla, Fieseler and Arado as well as Heinkel of course . Perhaps the Arado connection would explain the apparent use of some the same props on the Ar 68 . It might also explain some other subtle shape differences such as the wheel spats . I wonder if your Berlin contacts would have something to say about this ? Thanks again, Art

Wonderful Simon ! The exact shape of the tail skid has long been a mystery to me, that image is such a help. Thanks for sharing your work in progress, I don't mean to pressure you but I'm fascinated to see how you do with the kit. It looks like you have really nailed the shape of the spinner. Here are a few Photos of the He 51b that might inspire you. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/850/t4g5.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/mkec.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/txc3.jpg/ All the best, Art

Thanks Simon, that last photo was absent from my collection till now. One thing I would really like to see is a close up or diagram of the tail skid , do you have anything ? By the way, will you be treating us to a work in progress thread of your he 51 ? Art

Hello Bruce, Nice to hear from you and glad to be of assistance. I am a big admirer of your example of the Silver Wings He 51, it's a beautiful rendering . Did you alter the shape of the kit spinner to a more pointed shape ? It seems more accurate in form than I've seen on other renditions of this kit . Here are a couple more photos that illustrate the placement of the drop tanks and its sway braces . This almost perfectly head on view illustrates well the angle of the rear sway braces on the fuel tank ( zoom in for full effect ) . Note also how the airflow vane under the engine ( that antenna like thing ) is off set to starboard. http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/2077/3kfc.jpg No fuel tank here, but you can clearly see the exact location of the sway brace attachment points as two dark spots on the wing roots . This photo also evidences well a point Simon made earlier, the fact that the radiator was the same width along its length rather than tapered to the rear, a flaw repeated on all plans and every kit I've seen of the He 51 . http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5549/m23k.jpg Art.

I guess I've managed to scrounge together about 500 images of varying quality. If there is some point of particular interest you have let me know and I will see what I've got. One area I have few clear photos of is the fuel tank and its attachment points . Here are a few useful photos . Note that the fuel tank had 4 side braces . I imagine you have the below image in one of your manuals. By the way did you find out any more info about the "bomb bay" ? Art

Hi Simon, One area that I have very few photos of is the upper decking between the cockpit and engine. This is probably the best one, note the later one piece windscreen and teardrop fairing in the foreground. From what I can tell this fairing was only on the starboard side on later mks . Heres another interesting image of the early 3 part windscreen and gun site. Unfortunately things get a bit blurry under the wing. There are also no rigging cables there which is odd, perhaps I have misidentified this aircraft (?). And then there's this but I'm not even sure that it is a he 51. Note that there are no sleeves over the forward part of the machine guns . Perhaps its an Arado 65 (?). And there is this very nice image that was posted earlier . If you have any more photos of this area of the he 51 I would love to see them. All the best, Art

I'd put my money on it being a bomb bay too but its odd place for a bomb bay if thats what it is . I suppose with the forward fuselage taken up by the drop tank and the wood and fabric wings not capable of holding much weight there wasn't anywhere else to put it. Some WWI types like the Sopwith Strutter had a similar arrangement too . I imagine the shift of center of gravity it would have caused must have kept the pilot fully entertained . I note the variety in the tips of the "late style" prop, some are rounded , http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/698/f55z.jpg others appear "clipped" . http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8182/9kwv.jpg Thats an interesting fact you mentioned about the Peashooter, another of my favorite aircraft from this period. The "bomb bay" pic was an ebay find. Ebay Germany has proven to be something of a goldmine for He 51 photos in recent years, especially for the Spanish civil war period. You have to dig around a bit though as the he 51 often gets misidentified or not identified at all. Heres a couple more photos of that 2 plane pile up. http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1830/ldu0.jpg http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6827/7bs9.jpg Until the next time , Art

Hello Simon, I am enjoying this exchange too ! I have never been very certain as to the differences between the various he 51 marks, many examples seem to have a mixture of variant features. I have never seen bomb racks on an he 51 unless you are referring to the fuel tank which often had bomblets lashed to it, can you elaborate on this point ? Any photos of bomb racks ? "Later Cs have a missing panel in the fuselage under the pilot, just to the rear of the fuel tank, this does fit a framed section in the tubular fuselage frame, but I have no idea why the panel was not fitted? - any ideas?" Hah ! I was hoping you might be able to explain that to me. Is it perhaps a bay for flare chutes ? Smoke grenade chutes ? Perhaps even a bomb bay for small bombs such as the SD10C ? Perhaps just ventilation of some sort ? Only guesses on my part. Here is the best photo I have of it. http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2779/87ix.jpg "The Silverwings kit it absolutely littered with errors, but I was mistaken to think it was a missing cabane strut - it is in fact missing the aileron actuator shaft that sits on the aircraft's off side behind the cabane struts." So does this mean that what I took to be added cabane struts are actually aileron actuator shafts ? If so where were the actuators in the early he 51 ? "one of the biggest variables I can see is the wooden prop blade design - dozens of different profiles!" Can you elaborate on this please ? I would only say with any confidence that there were two kinds of props used. Propellers being such complex and subtle shapes can look very different with just a slight shift in perspective. But I must look into that a bit more. This photo shows the two prop types I am familiar with. The he 51 in the foreground has a prop type seen on some late aircraft. I think this prop was also used on some Arado 68s. The He 51 behind it has the rather odd looking paddle like prop seen on most He 51s. http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7348/2u1b.jpg That's all for tonight, all the best, Art

Thank you very much Kev and I am glad to be of assistance Simon. The he 51 has long been a favourite of mine and I have been accumulating info and images relating to it for a few years now. Good references are few and far between but Classic Colours "Luftwaffe Colours Volume 1 Section 1, Jagdwaffe, Birth Of The Luftwaffe Fighter Force" and "Volume 1 Section 2 The Spanish Civil War" are both very good . I don't have the Silver Wings kit but do have a stack of the classic airframes kit in the pending pile. It appears they may have used the same plans as similar errors are to be found in both. It appears you have picked up on most of those but here are a few more pointers. There seem to have been 2 types of he 51 elevator. The first kind is represented on all the plans I have seen and has a curved trailing edge. It's hard to find good photos of this subtle feature. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/9aj3.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/aipt.jpg/ This form does not seem to have lasted long as the great majority of photos show elevators with a straight trailing edge that is parallel to its leading edge, well illustrated in the photo of the dismantled he 51 in my previous post , and here. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/mtzi.jpg/ You mentioned in one of your posts that the kit is missing cabane struts, If I understand you correctly this is not necessarily an error as there seem to have been 2 kinds of cabane strut arrangement just forward of the cockpit as seen in the photos below. The " double ' cabane strut seems to have been a later strengthening modification. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/e43g.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/ndqr.jpg/ There seem to have been 2 kinds of wheel spat , an early form tear drop shaped but with an upward curve at its lowest point. http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/46/zfvq.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/826/7m0j.jpg/ The second type is a pure tear drop shape . http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/18/3l4k.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/nh7x.jpg/ I hope these help Simon, Time for my tea ! I shall post more in the following days. Art

Clear photo of the He51's tail, http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/460/0pvu.jpg I hope to post some more info in the following days. Art