Question on puttying the rivets and panel lines on P-51 Ds' upper

[Guest Ta152H1]

Hi all,

I'm gathering info and AM sets for my Tamiya Mustang and one things puzzles me.

I've read many posts on how the rivets and panel lines on the P-51D upper wings were puttied over,smoothed and painted silver/aluminum dope and I've also got an official drawing showing the treated areas but,to be perfectly honest,I haven't got a clue as yet!I'm a total noob when it comes to Mustangs so please cope with me.

On to my question now;I do love the restrained detail on the kit's parts and would love to keep it,that wouldn't be very realistic on a factory-fresh machine but would it be acceptable on an aircraft with a few months of hard service behind his tail?IIRC a member posted a few pictures of a war-weary aircraft whose upper wings show'd panel lines and rivets,but I cannot fid it anymore.

I've gathered quite a collection of pictures showing restored machines and many of those pictures show rivets and panel lines but I'm not going to build the replica of a restored bird,so any help from the ones who know best about this iconic aircraft won't be appreciated enough!

Cheers

Lou

Edited June 10, 2012 by Ta152H1

[Daywalker]

Hi Lou!

 

I too am a bit of a noob on the P-51 Mustang, but one of the builds here which I think is an excellent representation of a war-weary P-51D was built by Geedubelyer here. As far as I can tell, I think he left the panel lines and rivets on the wing surfaces.

[Guest Ta152H1]

Hi Lou!

 

I too am a bit of a noob on the P-51 Mustang, but one of the builds here which I think is an excellent representation of a war-weary P-51D was built by Geedubelyer here. As far as I can tell, I think he left the panel lines and rivets on the wing surfaces.

 

Hi Frank,

thank you very much for the link!That's a beauty and one of my fave schemes to boot!

Cheers

Lou

[JRutman]

This issue still rages on the internet but the army manuels don't lie. The call out was for the joints and rivits to be puttied and sanded smooth,then painted,to improve airflow.

There are some pics of a/c in service with the putty worn off and I suspect this was from crews that rubbed the paint off the wings with avgas or something. This was documented by Bud Anderson,a 13 kill ace from the ETO in his book. His a/c was factory painted OD and grey. When the brass gave the OK to remove the paint and go with NMF,his crew chief stayed up all night and surprised him with a NMF a/c for next days' mission.

To confirm my facts or to find out anything on the P-51,go to P-51SIG. They absolutely know more than the so-called experts on the model forums. Please believe me,the planes left the factory with smooth wings.

And,once again,I fell victim many times while building master patterns to using restored a/c for reference. There are VERY few restored a/c that are original spec. I always cite the famous example of the FW190D-13 and D-9 that for many years had the wings switched and few people caught it,even so called experts that wrote ref books.

J

[dodgem37]

North American Aviation puttied and primered the front 40% of the top wing to improve laminar flow. I don't recall if the lower wing was similarly finished. A drag-free, smooth surface was critical for laminar flow. Many photos, captions, and copy state and support this in 'Building the P-51 Mustang', one of the references I used during my build. Once the wings were stressed during flight, even test flying, putty would wrangle itself out of the panel lines and rivets.

 

Now to your question:

'Would it be acceptable on an aircraft with a few months of hard service behind his tail?'

I would say 'Yes'.

 

Sincerely,

Mark

[Guest Ta152H1]

This issue still rages on the internet but the army manuels don't lie. The call out was for the joints and rivits to be puttied and sanded smooth,then painted,to improve airflow.

There are some pics of a/c in service with the putty worn off and I suspect this was from crews that rubbed the paint off the wings with avgas or something. This was documented by Bud Anderson,a 13 kill ace from the ETO in his book. His a/c was factory painted OD and grey. When the brass gave the OK to remove the paint and go with NMF,his crew chief stayed up all night and surprised him with a NMF a/c for next days' mission.

To confirm my facts or to find out anything on the P-51,go to P-51SIG. They absolutely know more than the so-called experts on the model forums. Please believe me,the planes left the factory with smooth wings.

And,once again,I fell victim many times while building master patterns to using restored a/c for reference. There are VERY few restored a/c that are original spec. I always cite the famous example of the FW190D-13 and D-9 that for many years had the wings switched and few people caught it,even so called experts that wrote ref books.

J

 

Hi Jerry,

thank you very much for chimin' in with your unsurpassed knowledge!NBow I remember I read this story about Anderson's mount but forgot about that!I do believe you when you say that the planes left the factory with smooth wings but, as you know much better than I do,structural stress may crack the putty and as consequence it would fall off!

My brain is on permanent leave....the P51 SIG....yeah....I must write a book called "Me and my lobotomy"! :doh: :doh:

I 101% get your drift on restored machines,in fact I stated that I wouldn't have built a model going by the pictures of a restored AC...and the D9-D13 example fits in well...ditto for what you say about the so-called "experts"!

Thanks again!

Cheers

Lou

[Guest Ta152H1]

Mark,

we've posted just about at the same time...thank you very much for your reply!

Cheers

Lou

[Guest Ta152H1]

Due to the usual leechers who steal and commercially use info the P51 SIG is now restricted to invitation or current member recommendation only...I cannot even contact the Admin

Edited June 10, 2012 by Ta152H1

[JRutman]

Due to the usual leechers who steal and commercially use info the P51 SIG is now restricted to invitation or current member recommendation only...I cannot even contact the Admin

Well that sux!! Always a few turd-heads ruin things for everybody else! There is a guy on that site that has access to the P-51 in a museum in Switzerland. This a/c was"parked" in the museum in original condition and has all of it's canvas boots,markings and little stuff that usually gets discarded during use and"restoration". I used pix of the tail wheel bay from him when making my resin part. A rare glimpse into what a P-51 used to really look like.

Geoff was using this site while building his jaw dropping 1/24 scale P-51D and we used to talk a lot about how hard it is to replicate the way they actually looked,due to so many "legends" that are now taken as fact.

J

[Guest Ta152H1]

I can always rely on LSP though!!!

[csavaglio]

I spent some time taking some decent photos of the Dubendorf mustang. When I get to my computer, I'll see if I have anything showing the wing clearly.

 

C

[csavaglio]

Ok, well, it looks like I didn't get a good shot of it. I think when I looked at the airplane, I just thought it was another Mustang and there's millions of photos of them around. My small group of photos concentrated on the original undercarriage and bays as well as the unusual rockets and launchers. But, I did get a few where other details snuck in.....

 

If you look at the close up below (a crop of a shot at the gear bay), you can see where the upper rivets and lines are much more subtle, likely because of being filled. The undersides were definitely NOT filled, at least on this a/c.

 

Anyhow, interpret it how you may. These are my personal photos, so use them for yourselves, but not for profit, of course. Unless you pay me.....a lot. Please....

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

[Juggernut]

Just remember, no P-51D was ever delivered from the factory (Englewood or Dallas) in OD/NG. On January 1, 1944, NAA issued a factory order deleting camouflage from fighter and bomber aircraft. (O'Leary, 130) O'Leary goes on to say that the directive states: "At the earliest possible date, without delaying production, camouflage paint will be deleted from all spares delivered concurrently with airplanes without camouflage. Exterior surfaces such as fabric, plywood, magnesium, and dural will require protective primers of aluminized coloring. Alclad or stainless steel will require no covering. Antiglare paint will be on top of the fuselage covering forward vision areas to aid the pilot. The propellers will remain black with yellow tips.

 

The wing leading edge of the Mustang will be smoothed and suraced as outlined in the P-51B and P-51C Series Repair Manual Report No. NA-5741, with the exception that the camouflage coats will be deleted and aluminized lacquer will be applied over the surfaces. The deletion of the camouflage will eliminate approximately 42 pounds of finish from the B-25 Series Airplanes and 16 pounds of finish from the P-51 Series Airplanes. It is anticipated that the removal of the camouflage will also result in materially increased speed.

 

O'Leary interjects the following statement within the directive: "Camouflage at the factory was removed with a type of thinner t hat did not attack the grey airfoil smoother. However, thinners available in the field would damage and remove the important coating. Rivet heads, rought edges, etc., would be exposed and create an unwanted drag. To prevent this condition from occurring and to provide a timesaving method of accomplishing the elimination, NAA recommended that USAAF bases utilize the following procedure:

 

"In place of removing the camouflage from the airfoil smoother, apply additional paint to the area, which extends from the wing leading edge to approximately 40 percent chord. Use a mixture containing 8 ounces of aluminum paste to each unthinned gallon of clear lacquer (Spec. AN-TT-L-51) or clear varnish (Spec. AN-TT-V-118). This will allow the surface to assume the necessary appearance of unpainted aluminum or stainless steel. Any specified thinner may be used for the removal of camoufage from all other surfaces of the aircraft.

 

With respect to what Jerry said above regarding Bud Anderson's aircraft, Bud Anderson said that the aircraft were kept green/gray in the spring/summer months and up until probably late fall. The specific incident that Jerry references did indeed happen and I have it on video from Bud Anderson that in this case, he made an off-handed comment to the ground crew that the first snow had fallen over the continent and didn't say anything further about it. He also mentioned that he had put himself on the mission board for the following day. When he arrived at his aircraft the following day, he was stunned that the aircraft was silver. He remarked that the ground crew had bloody hands. On the video he was visibly moved by the ground crew's dedication.

 

Reference: O'Leary, Michael. 2010. Building the P-51 Mustang, The Story of Manufacturing North American's Legendary World War II Fighter in Original Photos.Specialty Press, MN (pp 130-131)

Aces of the Eight, VHS.

Edited June 10, 2012 by TimC

[Guest Ta152H1]

Tim and Chris,

thank you very much for the pictures and infos!

Lou

[jrh]

The darker areas are natural metal, the lighter areas are silver paint. The faint panel lines are shown to illustrate which ones are puttied and painted. The dark black panel lines remain visible. There is some question about the panel line where the wing tip bolts onto the wing (the one just outboard of the stiffener strakes). There is some evidence that since the wing tip was removed at that point for crating and shipping that it may not have been filled & painted after the a/c arrived overseas and was reassembled.

 

J