Spitfire MkI and MkII - a thread for inspiration and identification

[nmayhew]

as the title implies...with the advent of the new Revell Spitfire, I thought it would be good to have a thread where we could post pictures of Spitfires that might be interesting modelling subjects

 

this thread can also be used to ask related questions about identification, camo schemes etc, because we know this can be a bit of a minefield...

 

so, to kick off, here is a well known subject...

 

Al Deere's 'Kiwi' N3180 KL-B which I believe was his first of quite a few 'Kiwi's

he brought it down on the Dunkirk (I think) beaches on 28 May 1940

the aircraft burnt out afterwards

 

 

and from the other side...

 

 

and a few more after the tides and scavengers have taken their toll...

 

 

 

 

so from this we have de Havilland spinner / prop, but aerial mast is indeterminate, as are the underwing colours

 

this airframe is covered by Souther Expo decals, thus (see below).

note they go with black and white undersides, no roundels

 

 

now, as regards the undersides, a couple of other Dunkirk Spitfires definitely show roundels - see my next post...

 

[nmayhew]

this next one shows roundels on black / white (rather than sky) undersides

 

from some internet digging, it seems we have two different Spits here, both of which made wheels down landings in the Dunkirk area...

 

PO Davies of 222 Sqn, N3295, ZD-?, 31st May

and

PO Gribble of 54 Sqn , N3103, KL-?, 25th may

 

the first one is Davies' Spit...looks like Rotol spinner?

 

 

 

great underside shot!

 

 

what I thought was the same aircraft...but apparently this is Gribble's...

 

showing roundel on white wing presumably?

 

one final shot...

 

firstly, does anyone have any further clues as to the ID of these aircraft?

 

secondly, does this make it likely that Al Deere's crashed kiwi also had underwing roundels, given the very close proximity of date and location, AND the fact that one of them is from the same squadron (supposedly)?

 

***edited to show that there are two different aircraft in this second post, not one, as I had first thought***

 

answers on a postcard please!

 

Edited June 29, 2014 by nmayhew

[LSP_Matt]

I was just musing to myself that whilst I think the MkIX is amazingly graceful my favourite Spit is still the MkI and MkII.  Don't quite know what it is but the earlier Marque just has something the other race car doesn't.

 

Matty

[LSP_K2]

I was just musing to myself that whilst I think the MkIX is amazingly graceful my favourite Spit is still the MkI and MkII.  Don't quite know what it is but the earlier Marque just has something the other race car doesn't.

 

Matty

 

Agreed.

[skiner]

For me lady Spitfire will be this one... flown by one of the few french pilote during Battle of Britain...

 

[Guest KingK_series]

Underwing roundels got a yellow outer ring and fin flashes on UK based aircraft were required from an Air Min directive of 1 may 1940,

 

Typically while fin flashes did get applied to aircraft operating over France, the presence underwing roundels varied from squadron to squadron, many aircraft still not sporting them through the summer

 

 For instance Al Deere's P9398 with sky undersides did not have underwing roundels in june/july 1940 -

 

 

Props -

 

at this time urgent work was being done to consider how to convert existing two speed De Havilland aircraft to CS props, the problem being that the Rotol prop required a different spline and therefore a whole engine change, the props you refer to have ally Swarrtz blades and are therefore highly likely to be early Rotol CS props on new Spits built with engines and shafts for Rotol CS props, most Spits over Dunkirk flew with 2 speed De Havillands.

 

Given the urgency for the coming battle De Havilland were tasked with fitting their own CS prop - something the did not think appropriate since theirs was not designed for fighters, but it did have the advantage of using a common spline to their 2 speed props.

 

- so in early june a 65 squadron aircraft was converted over night by De Havilland engineers and tested against a Rotol CS Spitfire Mk1, and to De Havillands surprise very little difference was reported, so on 22nd June Dowding ordered the De Havilland CS unit be fitted to all Spitfires, Hurricanes and Defiants, thereby avoiding replacing all the engines too with consequential saving of time.

 

one of your pics is definitely a D H 2 speed prop, the others must be very rare early metal bladed 10' 6" dia Rotol CS units.

 

the Spitfire Mk II was fitted with a developed Rotol CS with 10' 4" Jablo wooden blades, though large numbers of early Mk IIs were fitted with D H CS units  -

Edited June 29, 2014 by KingK_series

[Guest KingK_series]

Note the hand painted underwing roundel -

 

I detest decals, after all the work most people do 'weathering' models these days, exact precise decals always have looked just wrong to me, but the brush marks on these roundels will show upo that disparity all the more.

 

 

note stencils were painted in white on a black wing too -

Edited June 29, 2014 by KingK_series

[Guest Peterpools]

For me, my Spit will have to be a Mk 1a BOB and I'm hoping before I tackle the build, some of the AM guys and gurus will have all the upgrade kits and parts ready and waiting.

Peter

[Guest Dekenba]

I was just musing to myself that whilst I think the MkIX is amazingly graceful my favourite Spit is still the MkI and MkII.  Don't quite know what it is but the earlier Marque just has something the other race car doesn't.

 

Matty

 

I think it has cleaner, simpler lines  and hence has that impression of grace and beauty. 

[Edgar Brooks]

The May 1st., 1940 order was for yellow circles to be added to the fuselage roundels, not underneath.

On May 11th., repeated on the 15th., an order was issued for underwing roundels to be painted (without any yellow.)

On June 2nd., an order was issued to paint the undersides all Sky, with underwing roundels being thereby completely painted out.

On June 12th., a signal stated that, due to a shortage of Sky, the black/white scheme might still be seen, and the roundel under the black port wing was to have a yellow ring added, which must not encroach onto the ailerons or hinges.

On June 14th., units (including the Civilian Repair Organisation) were told that the black/white scheme could be overpainted by a maximum of two coats of Sky, but (due to balance considerations, which units were not equipped to deal with) that did not include ailerons, which should have the original paint washed off before application of Sky.

On August 11th., apparently due to some units having painted them anyway, an order gave tacit approval for underwing roundels to reappear.

[BradG]

Brush marks evident on the white of the roundel, -10 points.

[nmayhew]

Thank you for input gents

 

Sooo...if you were modelling KL-B here, would you go with black wing only, and the rest white?

And would you add the roundels, given the evidence of the other two aircraft in this thread?

 

I am in need of guidance

 

Edited June 30, 2014 by nmayhew

[LSP_Matt]

Brush marks evident on the white of the roundel, -10 points.

Sure are.  Wow.  Very evident.

 

Matty

[gingerbob]

 

 

 

 

I don't think this one is Deere's- compare the "curl" of the top blade to the other photos.  It also looks like a DH prop to me?  Deere's is definitely a Rotol.

 

bob

[nmayhew]

hi Bob

 

Good spot!

 

I suppose from a modelling perspective, the more i stare at the first pic of KL-B it does look like a rotol prop doesn't it?

 

When I model this Kiwi, I will go with underwing roundels, purely because another plane from the same squadron (and another from a different sq) clearly show them

 

The problem is at present no company makes any decals for the underwing stencils (the white ones to go on port wing) - and these are very prominent

 

Guess I will have to wait, and hope, otherwise all projects with the same scheme are a no go at present

 

To be honest I was hoping other members were going to chime in with their own similar pics for discussion of other MkI & II Spitfires, but hey ho...

 

Thanks again for the spot about KL-B

 

Cheers

 

Nick

Edited July 6, 2014 by nmayhew