27 replies to this topic

[LSP_Matt]

This topic has been raised before with respect to US equipment from WW2. No longer is it finders keepers, possesion 90% of the law or belongs to the country where it was left...it remains US property if it was US owned. Don't know about the UK.

Pacificwrecks.com? Justin Tylan.

Shame its getting trashed.

Matty

[MARU5137]

Pappy1,

Yes it would be good for the families if their beloved was returned to the country in which he was born, or came from, but surely circumstances in some cases does not allow for that to happen or take place,

Many airmen, soldiers and naval officers who have given their lives during
WWII, and even during WWI and who have died in countries other than
In their own birth country,have been given decent burials and their graves have been tended to.

Just because they happen to be Egyptians ( or non-Europeans ) does not mean that they are savages when they
Come across a person, and in this case , pilots et al, that they will be any less reverent ; and they will not be "looked"
After in their death.

If you ask for the remains of the pilot to be returned then all those people throughout the World
Who have cared for the cemeteries of those killed ,
and have been buried there will feel as if they are incapable and insulted at best.

EGYPT has also looked after those Airmen,Soldiers and Sailors by dedicating a particular piece of land which is especially given to them.( MY Uncle was stationed in North Africa so ...)

I understand that you want the pilot returned but would it not be better to let him rest iin PEACE where he is.

Have a look at this link and scroll right down to the end and you will see that the foreign forces are held in high regard.


www.qattara.it/60-36%20sepoulture.html

Edited by MARU5137, 08 August 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[LSP_Matt]

Pappy1,
Yes it would be good for the families if their beloved was returned to the country in which he was born, or came from, but surely circumstances in some cases does not allow for that to happen or take place,

Hi there,

Its an interesting sentiment that in general I think most people would share. Routinely great archeological efforts and expenditures are made to return the remains of dead soldiers to their country of origin. Strange to me how it motivates people.

When I was injured and off work I amused myself by visiting a local auction house. Kev and Brad would know it...Abbeys auctions. What shocked me was paraphenalia that had once constituted some old boys life. Medals of various sorts, amongst bits of pttery, memorial spoons and trinkets. People were just rummaging through it like it was trash or treasure. They not one wit of thought to the personal nature of the boxes contents.

On another occasion I helped my physio empty his distant relative house after he had died. In the garage there was so much stuff that, despite being very old, was in wonderful condition. His screws, nuts and bolts were all neatly in jars according to size. Doosh...into the waste hopper it all went. I felt like absolute crud and said a little prayer to whoever the old boy was. As i'm saying a few quiet words to myself I'm almost apologising for turfing out his stuff and at the same time commenting on how organised he was. We all know what its like to 'not' be able to find something in the garage when you want it.

I guess the nub of this pratting is that on one hand society honours and reveres some individuals at the same time as it treats others as simply junk that needs to be disposed off.

A strange old world.

Frankly I'd have expected the RAF to be all over this in 5seconds. One Chinook down to the Bedoin camp with a bag of cash and some good manners. Load the P40 up and back for tea and scones at the mess.

Matty

[Derek B]

Hi there,

Its an interesting sentiment that in general I think most people would share. Routinely great archeological efforts and expenditures are made to return the remains of dead soldiers to their country of origin. Strange to me how it motivates people.

When I was injured and off work I amused myself by visiting a local auction house. Kev and Brad would know it...Abbeys auctions. What shocked me was paraphenalia that had once constituted some old boys life. Medals of various sorts, amongst bits of pttery, memorial spoons and trinkets. People were just rummaging through it like it was trash or treasure. They not one wit of thought to the personal nature of the boxes contents.

On another occasion I helped my physio empty his distant relative house after he had died. In the garage there was so much stuff that, despite being very old, was in wonderful condition. His screws, nuts and bolts were all neatly in jars according to size. Doosh...into the waste hopper it all went. I felt like absolute crud and said a little prayer to whoever the old boy was. As i'm saying a few quiet words to myself I'm almost apologising for turfing out his stuff and at the same time commenting on how organised he was. We all know what its like to 'not' be able to find something in the garage when you want it.

I guess the nub of this pratting is that on one hand society honours and reveres some individuals at the same time as it treats others as simply junk that needs to be disposed off.

A strange old world.

Frankly I'd have expected the RAF to be all over this in 5seconds. One Chinook down to the Bedoin camp with a bag of cash and some good manners. Load the P40 up and back for tea and scones at the mess.

Matty

Well said Matty - I have often thought/felt the same way...it is strange how it can emotionally pull you in two different directions at the same time!

Derek

[KOTR]

Would anyone of you go nuts about a prehistoric hand axe as some of you do over the P-40? And why not? Is a hand axe probably of lesser importance or value than a P-40?

Just wondering, a friend of mine, a farmer, finds them every now and then in his fields. Anthropologists and archeologists would burn to examine his grounds, for him, they are just a nuisance.


And here we are again: a historic value only applies, where one can relate to a specific item. Be it a personal relationship or interest, or because our education and/or public opinion tell us to value it as an important testimonial of bravery/heroism/technical and/or historical achievement. If this fits in the right picture and supports the national/cultural/ideological identity, its perfect. A modern form of veneration of relics.

But if none of this applies, the item in question is just junk...

[TonyT]

"Things have moved on quite a bit these last couple of weeks, and I am sure the story will 'out' very soon.

However, I think the 'news' story which seems to be from 6 August (the earlier link from AndrewC refers) is a little dated in content and accuracy.

Flt Sgt Copping, the most important element in this whole story, remains missing and is still somewhere in the desert. His P40, meanwhile, is not."

Q
http://forum.keypubl...=116221&page=42


So the P-40 appears to have been recovered.

Edited by TonyT, 08 August 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[Out2gtcha]

Flt Sgt Copping, the most important element in this whole story, remains missing and is still somewhere in the desert.............."

Yes definitely dont think that is accurate.

AFAICT Sgt Coppings remain HAVE been recovered

[Bryan]

Why would the people who live in the desert have historical appreciation for a WW2 fighter plane? It's just a source of metal for them, I'd think they would value things like water a little more. What financial value is in it for them? They don't have the resources to recover it. I also find it funny how you'd expect a nation to just drop everything and run off to protect a wrecked aircraft in the middle of nowhere, I think they have bigger problems at the moment.

Even if it is recovered, why should it go to the RAF Museum? Send it to an Egyptian museum, they did fly the P-40 (well Tomahawks not Kittyhawks but off hand I don't think there were many differences).

Perhaps you are just trying to be argumentative, but you make it sound like everyone who lives in Egypt is a primitive hunter-gatherer who spends every day wandering the waste eating scorpions and looking for water. I suspect they are aware of the historical importance of the greatest conflict mankind has ever faced, and that some of it took place on their soil. If you looked at the video link I posted....the individuals at the crash site were obviously part of an organized expedition, well equipped with proper all terrain vehicles and video cameras. There was not a camel in sight. If as you allege they were too simple to understand history, too desperate too see the crash as anything more than scrap metal, too preoccupied to be concerned with historical artifacts, and too without resources to attempt a recovery, why bother going to the crash site at all? I am certain it is in a location that is very difficult to access....

As far as financial value.....I am sure there are interests all over the world, starting in the UK, that would have paid handsomely for the rights to recover that wreck in a largely undisturbed state.....

[TonyT]

TonyT, on 08 August 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:
Flt Sgt Copping, the most important element in this whole story, remains missing and is still somewhere in the desert.............."

Yes definitely dont think that is accurate.

AFAICT Sgt Coppings remain HAVE been recovered


Brian, he hasn't been recovered, indeed as the remains haven't been identified, there is still a question if they are his, sadly it appears since the remains we're found however no one has been out to them since then sadly, you really need to read the thread I have linked you to, one of the team that discovered the remains is active in the thread. He posts under the name Qattara. The link will also show some other things they found.

Edited by TonyT, 09 August 2012 - 06:29 PM.

[JohnB]

Check out post #1236 on August 10.

http://forum.keypubl...=116221&page=42

I sincerely hope this is correct!!!

[alaninaustria]

Me too... this aircraft represents the sacrifices and efforts of the greatest generation that opposed tyranny and succeeded.... it deserves a place of recognition and respect. Let us hope and pray that this a/c will be recovered and restored to her former glory.
Cheers
Alan

[Derek B]

Came across this whilst I was searching for some other information on the web:

Sunday, May 13, 2012


<a href="http://oldretiredpet...e-time.html">My Uncle Denis, pilot of the plane time forgot: First pictures of the man who crash-landed his plane in the Sahara and then walked off across the sands to his death


This is a follow up to the post of the other day. There are pictures of Flight Sergeant Copping here. A face to the name.

• The Mail On Sunday has found the nephew of Kittyhawk P-40 pilot who is thought to have survived crash but died trying to escape the desert on foot
• Pictures from the family collection show a proud 24-year-old Flight Sergeant Denis Copping just days before crash
• Aircraft was found almost perfectly preserved, unseen and untouched, after it came down in 1942
• Historian describes find as 'an incredible time capsule' and 'the aviation equivalent of Tutankhamun's Tomb'

Flight Sergeant Copping in his P-40 Kittyhawk.

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1ulcf6XoE

Rest in peace F/Sgt Dennis Copping.

Derek

Edited by Derek B, 13 August 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[alaninaustria]

Wow, that adds a whole new dimension to this recovery! Thanks for sharing this!
I hope they find him and identify him, plus recover the aircraft properly!
Cheers
Alan