32 replies to this topic

[Ta152H1]

Well....after a careful study of the pictures showing the Zero in detail all I've got to say is...BEAUTIFULLY and EXQUISITELY built,detailed,painted and (if you choose this option) weathered!
It's sure more "convincing" than the Spit,to me at least...at 8 grands still seems priced to the moon when seen from a modeler's point of view,but even a modeler/collector could be very tempted and/or,if he cannot afford or doesn't want to treat him to that, day-dream about owning such a nicely built model !
Maru,I perfectly got your drift.....we,as collectors (and I'm sure that there's plenty here), look at our treasures from our point of view and wouldn't mind paying the extra $$$ if we badly want something and the he seller won't budge,a nice example would be WW2 militaria and uniforms collecting...collectors don't mind paying thousands of dollars for a tunic or a cap that many people would consider 70 years old rags!
The more I consider that the more I convince myself that Nagao-san's work deserves to be a well retributed professional modeler;the question is...how much Data Link charge on Nagao's models or,rather,will Nagao-san get what he truly deserves?Ok...none of our biz here,but I hope he'll make a good living out of it!
We're looking at 1/32 models here,but who knows if he also build in smaller scales as well?
Cheers
Lou

Edited by Ta152H1, 25 May 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[Dekenba]

I must say that the model in those photos is superb.
We are looking at this with "modellers' eyes". But he is not pitching his product to modellers. And I do not see a modeller buying it. Any modeller worth his salt would just buy the kit and try his best.
How many people can safely/sanely say "100 million for VanGogh's Sunflowers? There is just about 50-bucks-worth of materials in it? I can do better for less!" :-)
Fair play to him. He is pitching to the collector and collectors look at this with differrent eyes, not like us. He charges a fair price in my opinion. Considering that he is going to put 150-200 hours (or maybe more) of skilled work in building it, he actually charges less per hour than a plumber.
Radu

But Van Gogh's skills are his and his alone, they are unique - even more so since he's dead - and are simply not transferable. Even somebody who is producing copies of his work is simply copying, like a photocopier does.

This model is a production of a mass produced, easily available product. I'd say that most reasonably skilled and experienced large scale modellers could replicate that Spitfire, with may using AM stuff to really improve on it.

And that's why he's charging too much. It's possible to commission a model at least as good for a fraction of the price.

Having said that, if a buyer with very limited information wants to pay $8k for a readily available, mass produced model then good luck to him for spotting the market!

[JCote]

But Van Gogh's skills are his and his alone, they are unique - even more so since he's dead - and are simply not transferable. Even somebody who is producing copies of his work is simply copying, like a photocopier does.

This model is a production of a mass produced, easily available product. I'd say that most reasonably skilled and experienced large scale modellers could replicate that Spitfire, with may using AM stuff to really improve on it.

And that's why he's charging too much. It's possible to commission a model at least as good for a fraction of the price.

Having said that, if a buyer with very limited information wants to pay $8k for a readily available, mass produced model then good luck to him for spotting the market!

I couldn't agree more.

[Radub]

But Van Gogh's skills are his and his alone, they are unique - even more so since he's dead - and are simply not transferable. Even somebody who is producing copies of his work is simply copying, like a photocopier does.

This model is a production of a mass produced, easily available product. I'd say that most reasonably skilled and experienced large scale modellers could replicate that Spitfire, with may using AM stuff to really improve on it.

And that's why he's charging too much. It's possible to commission a model at least as good for a fraction of the price.

Having said that, if a buyer with very limited information wants to pay $8k for a readily available, mass produced model then good luck to him for spotting the market!

VanGogh's merit goes beyond his DEATH!

If you reduce VanGogh's work to the strict cost of materials, it is worth little. Add to those cheap materials a modicum of his talent and those cheap materials suddenly gain an added value. Similarly, the price of raw materials invested in such a model is not that high, but the man-hours and skill add to the value of the model.
Let me give you more examples: You can buy eggs and flour cheap from the supermarket, but if you make doughnuts out of them you can sell them at ten times the price of raw materials. Call yourself Martha Stewart at a White House banquet and those doughnuts become ten times more expensive.
You can buy a computer for 500 dollars. Use it to develop something like Facebook and that 500-dollar investment is worth billions.
You can buy the same guitar as Bono, but that doesn't make you Bono!
It is not the material, it is what you do with it.

There are plenty of artists, musicians, architects, model builders who command high prices and yet are still alive! You do not need to be dead to be worth something.

There is nothing in the whole wide world, not a single piece of law, not a single moral precept, not a single financial regulator interdiction, not a single fair-trading regulation, not an edict, not a fatwa, not a curse, NOTHING that stops you from selling a better model than that at a lower price. You can actually list your cheaper yet superior model right next to his on eBay. That will teach him!

This man puts a certain value on his time and skill. Fine by me! You think that your time and skill are worth less. Fine by me!

Radu

Edited by Radub, 25 May 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[Dekenba]

VanGogh's merit goes beyond his DEATH!

If you reduce VanGogh's work to the strict cost of materials, it is worth little. Add to those cheap materials a modicum of his talent and those cheap materials suddenly gain an added value. Similarly, the price of raw materials invested in such a model is not that high, but the man-hours and skill add to the value of the model.
Let me give you more examples: You can buy eggs and flour cheap from the supermarket, but if you make doughnuts out of them you can sell them at ten times the price of raw materials. Call yourself Martha Stewart at a White House banquet and those doughnuts become ten times more expensive.
You can buy a computer for 500 dollars. Use it to develop something like Facebook and that 500-dollar investment is worth billions.
You can buy the same guitar as Bono, but that doesn't make you Bono!
It is not the material, it is what you do with it.

There are plenty of artists, musicians, architects, model builders who command high prices and yet are still alive! You do not need to be dead to be worth something.

There is nothing in the whole wide world, not a single piece of law, not a single moral precept, not a single financial regulator interdiction, not a single fair-trading regulation, not an edict, not a fatwa, not a curse, NOTHING that stops you from selling a better model than that at a lower price. You can actually list your cheaper yet superior model right next to his on eBay. That will teach him!

This man puts a certain value on his time and skill. Fine by me! You think that your time and skill are worth less. Fine by me!

Radu

I don't think my time and skill are worth less - not sure where you got that impression from - but I do know that pricing is a combination of supply & demand.

Van Gogh's have very unique artistic merit & a very limited supply, hence high prices. That Spitfire model is easily obtainable & can be built just as well by other people charging less.

It is those people who set the price, not me! The truth is that you can get that exact same model commissioned to be built at least to the same standard for a fraction of the cost. It's very, very close to being a OOB build - even the decals are OOB!

Supply & demand rests on the assumption that buyers will have perfect information. This is the ability to price up alternatives. With the internet age, this is not a difficult skill and tends to result in prices finding their natural level. Only changes in supply & demand will change that price.

Perhaps it's because I have a background in economics that I'm commenting on this.

Just because you put a price on an item does not mean it's worth what you price it at. He may sell the very odd model at those kind's of prices, but that's a reflection upon a lack of information and research as much as an indication of what the model is "worth".

I absolutely stand by my opinion that $6k for an OOB build of a widely available model - to a standard replicated easily by plenty of other modellers for far less - is way too high a price.

If $6k was a reasonable price we'd see plenty more being advertised at that price. The fact that the rarity value of this sort of price brought it to our attention says it all. If it had been priced with one less zero it would have warranted absolutely no attention whatsoever, as it's anything but unique.

[Radub]

I don't think my time and skill are worth less - not sure where you got that impression from - but I do know that pricing is a combination of supply & demand.

I have no idea how skillful you are. I have no idea why you would say that I "think" that your skill is of lesser value. All I said that if he charges a certain amount, that is fine by me and if you charge another amount (a lesser amount, if we are to understand you correctly) that is also fine by me.

But here is the major flaw in your argument: This has nothing to do with the price of the raw materials. With skill and talent anyone can increase the value of the raw materials. Do not confuse "cost" with "value".

If you insist that the price you should pay MUST be ONLY the price of the raw materials, I have bad news for you. Everything around you, from the building you are in, the chair you are sitting on, the clothes on your back, the computer youe are looking at right now, the food digesting in your gut, everything around was purchased at a highert price than the price of the raw materials involved in making them.

As you already said that you have a "background in economics", I do not have to explain the concept of "added value" to you. This man is not selling logs, he is selling furniture. If you expect him to sell furniture at the price of logs, you are very mistaken.

As I said, there is nothing stopping you from selling a better kit for less.

Radu

Edited by Radub, 25 May 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[ssculptor]

Come on, guys. the world is filled to overflowing with people who make lots and lots of money and who also have no knowledge of what they are collecting. They know that if something is high priced it must very very good, indeed, so they will plunk down a ton of greenbacks for something that, with a little time and trouble they could find for maybe 10% of the asking price. But then how would they have something to brag about to their wealthy friends?
With good publicity you can sell most anything to somebody at a very high price. All you need is a quality item, a lot of good flak (hype, bullshit) and a wealthy person who know nothing of the object you are trying to sell him. Then you are off to the races.
There is a sucker born every minute.
Stephen

[JCote]

With respect, I don't think anyone is naive enough to confuse cost, price and value. The iPhone most of us here probably use is an obvious and oft-quoted example of how the price, let alone value, of an object bears little relation to the cost of its constituent materials or components.
In volume 2 of the Complete Car Modeller, which is all about how he built his 1/15th replica of the Bugatti Royale, renowned modeller Gerald Wingrove includes a picture of the finished miniature posed against a backdrop of assorted brass, copper and wood shapes, driving home the point that real modelling involves a complex process of transformation, requiring a level of skill and dexterity that very, very few people possess. (If memory serves, a Wingrove miniature can be obtained for the price of three of Mr Nagao's offerings).
I simply find it very difficult to equate a state-of-the-art plastic kitset such as the Tamiya Spitfire with the notion of raw material. There's nothing very raw about it, since by all accounts it goes together without any need for filler, so that a creditable replica (I didn't say a masterpiece like Mr Buddee's effort) is within the reach of most moderately experienced modellers. What value has been added here, apart from competent assembly and painting and a couple of inaccurate details? Naturally Mr Nagao is absolutely entitled to ask whatever price he wants. But if the yardstick is some measure of value produced per hour of work, Messrs Wingrove, Foran and Rojas Bazan come out a lot cheaper. In fact, Mr Nagao does appear to have a customer base, and I'd love to know who they are: most collectors I know are very savvy people

[Radub]

I said all I had to say. I was going to reply, but in reflection, it was pretty much the same thing that I said before.

His models are superb and in my opinion he is perfectly within his rights to charge whatever he wants for them. He has customers and I am sure that if he read this thread he would be laughing his &$$ off while counting his money. Anyone who can do better cheaper would be silly not to exploit the opportunity to undercut him. One has to wonder, though, what would motivate anyone to do that.

Radu

[Cees Broere]

I'd rather hear the Edge play the guitar than Bono.....

[Radub]

I'd rather hear the Edge play the guitar than Bono.....

True!
(but don't be fooled, he can play guitar and I saw him doing it)

Radu

[Youngtiger1]

Nice model building, but totally nuts when it comes to putting a price on that model. No plastic is worth that much in my book. Just my 5 worth.

Mike

[LSP_Ron]

Well the truth is.... something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

So if someone is willing to pay that amount, it must be worth it to them anyway.

Each to his own.

Ron

[Hagar]

If you look at his other items he over inflates everything. I looked for the ZM A-1H when it came on the market rather than deal with Volks. He has them for sale for whacked pricing for something you can get at half the price anywhere else.
James

[Dekenba]

I have no idea how skillful you are. I have no idea why you would say that I "think" that your skill is of lesser value. All I said that if he charges a certain amount, that is fine by me and if you charge another amount (a lesser amount, if we are to understand you correctly) that is also fine by me.

But here is the major flaw in your argument: This has nothing to do with the price of the raw materials. With skill and talent anyone can increase the value of the raw materials. Do not confuse "cost" with "value".

If you insist that the price you should pay MUST be ONLY the price of the raw materials, I have bad news for you. Everything around you, from the building you are in, the chair you are sitting on, the clothes on your back, the computer youe are looking at right now, the food digesting in your gut, everything around was purchased at a highert price than the price of the raw materials involved in making them.

As you already said that you have a "background in economics", I do not have to explain the concept of "added value" to you. This man is not selling logs, he is selling furniture. If you expect him to sell furniture at the price of logs, you are very mistaken.

As I said, there is nothing stopping you from selling a better kit for less.

Radu

In post #19, you state;

"You think that your time & skill are worth less". Hence my opening sentence in reply.

I have not mentioned raw materials anywhere, I have mentioned supply & demand. I have not mentioned that price should be restricted to cost, so that straw man you have constructed is very odd. And I understand very well the concept of added value - that is the core of my argument, that this man has added very little additional value to the basic Tamiya kit.

Worth is not what somebody charges, it's what somebody decides to pay for something. So his model is not worth $6k unless somebody decides to pay $6k for it.

Why on earth would somebody pay $6k for something that he can get for far less? It's a basic principle of economics.

You seem to be confusing the price somebody charges with the worth of something. He might sell it for $6k, but the buyer will have overpaid because it's value - the amount it would cost to replace it - would be a whole lot less. This is where your Van Gogh argument falls apart, as there is a degree of irreplaceableness that a 1/32 mass produced Tamiya Spitfire just cannot get anywhere near replicating.

And of course the acid test - if that Spitfire was worth $6k, then other identical models would also sell for $6k. They do not for a very good reason.

I've also not got a problem with him asking $6k for it. Good luck to him. But that does not mean I can't pass judgement upon what I think it's worth.

Asking price does not indicate an objects worth, it's the selling price that does that - this is the key issue that you seem to be ignoring.