Bf110 C, D or E in this North Africa pic??

[nmayhew]

hi guys,

 

i stumbled across a profile a Bf110 in North Africa that interests me from the Planes And Pilots #11 book, which incidentally i reviewed here:

http://scaleplastica...s-and-pilots-11

as i noted in my review, the profiles are a good place to start, but you need to do your research to be sure, so....

 

it is listed as a C-4 from 8./ZG26 at Derna, Libya in Sept 1942, but i am dubious as to the mark of 110 - and the pictures have me a bit stumped...

 

i know the bottom pic is of a different aircraft with the same codes, ironically in a similar position, and probably similar theatre, hence the confusion of the asisbiz site listing - i included it here initially by mistake, but thought might as well leave it just to show how you can get these things mixed up!

 

the aircraft i "want" it to be is a C so that i can use my newly traded-for 110 C kit to make an all RLM79 bird...

 

all the following images are from the site http://www.asisbiz.com/il2.html

 

profile

 

 

and some pics...

 

 

 

 

 

so, any ideas gentlemen?

 

Many thanks,

 

Nick

Edited May 3, 2011 by nmayhew

[Shawn M]

looks like an E, it has the scoop on top of the nose between the MG17s.

D's "usually" had the boat tail

C's did not have the nose scoop.

 

Just make the scoop ontop of the nose, check the pitot tube type and placement, and you can make your C into an E.

Also note it has the wing bomb racks and no central ETC rack.

You'll need TROP filters as well.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Shawn M

[Kagemusha]

There is a profile of that aircraft in Vasco and Estanislau's Bf 110 in color (spellcheck!) profile 1939-1945 and it is listed as an E-2/Trop.

 

The aircraft in the second photo is either a C or a D.

 

To convert a C into an E you also need the larger tail wheel.

 

There are a couple of North African C's here http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev3/2901-3000/rev2972-Book-Hahn/00.shtm which provides decals for the aircraft on the cover, though you'd have to scratch the ventral gun pack, but doesn't in 1/32 for 3U + JR, though you could get some masks made...

Edited May 3, 2011 by Kagemusha

[nmayhew]

thanks guys

 

i have the Vasco Estanislau Illustrated Study book, but not the one you mention Andy. oh well.

anyway, E-2/Trop it is.

the C comes with trop filter, but Bordfunker seating was different in E to C / D, as well as a few other differences like tailwheel, various other cockpit heating vents and so on

i guess i will have to wait for an "E" kit to come into my sticky little fingers!

Shawn, how did you identify the nose scoop from that first pic? because the cone is removed i couldn't see which it was - forget the profile, that was only posted for illustration.

cheers anyway

nick

PS were any "C"s in Africa in this scheme, or has the book i reviewed just made it up? i am suspicious because another bird in profile i researched from the book has clearly been misidentified.

[big matt]

When I did my G-4 conversion and needed a larger tail wheel, I found a 1/48th Fw190 main wheel fit the bill perfectly. It scaled to the same size as a 1/32 tail wheel. Saved me some hassle for sure.

 

Good luck, 110's are cool.

[Shawn M]

oh, the profile is where I saw the scoop.

I'd have to go digging to see if any C's were in Africa, off the top of my I head I'd say yes.

I'm also thinking its an E due to the wing racks, those started with the limited number of C4/B's (which in Europe) and went on.

Have you checked LEMB?

 

A lot of profiles call D's C4/B's which is just wrong! C4/B's were a rare bird.

The D had the life boat tails on them, it extended past the elevators and had a release cable down the tail boom.

E's had the nose scoop.

F's on had the different nacelles, spinners, etc like the G's.

 

Bordfunker seats are an easy scratch mod, heater ducting you wont see. Tail wheel as mentioned above can come from a 190 kit.

 

The Kagero book is a great source and of course Vasco's book is the '110 bible.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Shawn M

[Sabre F-86]

There is something really odd about this one. Notice the markings and location of the white theater band in photo two. The white band is right at the leading edge of the tailplane. Then compare that to the markings and band in photo 3. In this case the white band is right behind the cross under the third letter.

 

Also notice that while in photo two the tail is on, but the port engine is missing. In photo 3 the tail is gone, and the port engine is still there. Seems to me that if you rip off the tail while the engine is still there, you can't possibly have a photo of the aircraft with its tail on and the engine off. No one is going to put the tail back on and then remove the engine.

 

Thirdly, look at the drive line angles between the engines in photo 2, drive lines parallel, and the angles in photo 3 where the port engine is parallel to the line of flight but the stbd engine is parallel to the ground due to a twisting of the wing from lying on the ground.

 

Let's say that photo two is of the aircraft after the crash landing. Tail is on, port engine is pulled for another aircraft. Prop and spinner on the stbd engine is pulled, possibly for spares. So time passed, the allies are coming and they burn the wreck. (I'm not convinced the smoke is actually coming from the fuselage, but lets say it is). So the heat causes the rear spar to give way, the wing twists and the airframe settles. But why would they put a busted prop on and replace the port engine?

 

Is this possibly two different aircraft with the same markings?

 

 

Sabre

Edited May 3, 2011 by Sabre F-86

[LSP_K2]

The Schiffer book referenced above by Kag does indeed confirm this aircraft as an E-2/Trop.

 

Edited May 3, 2011 by Typhoonattack1

[LSP_K2]

PS were any "C"s in Africa in this scheme, or has the book i reviewed just made it up? i am suspicious because another bird in profile i researched from the book has clearly been misidentified.

The same book has this profile that may be of interest to you.

 

[nmayhew]

Thanks for all the input

To clarify, the book I am saying that has "taken the odd flyer" with their research is the one I reviewed, and NOT the Vasco book, God forbid!!

[LSP_Ray]

Kagero's Top Coulours 7 also has 3U + JR listed as a C-1/2. Unfortunately, it only provides the decals for it in 1/72 and 1/48th scale.

 

They do include 1/32nd scale decals for 3U + XS, which is RLM78 with squiggles in what they are guessing is RLM80.

[nmayhew]

Cheers Ray

I may get the book, but the decals are not an issue as I will mask it...

[LSP_Ray]

FYI, Luftwaffe Colours "Zerstorer Vol. 2: 1941-1945" also has a profile of 3U + XS, plus several photos of other 110's in Africa. If you don't want the decals, it might be a better choice than the Top Colours book, which doesn't have supporting photos (although the Top Colours book is pretty!).

[LSP_K2]

FYI, Luftwaffe Colours "Zerstorer Vol. 2: 1941-1945" also has a profile of 3U + XS, plus several photos of other 110's in Africa. If you don't want the decals, it might be a better choice than the Top Colours book, which doesn't have supporting photos (although the Top Colours book is pretty!).

 

Just to confirm, this is the book that Ray refers to, and is really a great series. All five main volumes, plus the specials makes for some great reference.

 

[nmayhew]

Yup, I have said book, vols 1 and 2...

 

If I see John Vasco in the author line up I know the research has been done, and done right