Jump to content


Photo

Silver Wings PZL P.11c - Shelved


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#16 Clunkmeister

Clunkmeister

    Senior Member

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,018 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Anna, Texas

Posted 10 June 2016 - 04:55 PM

I'll look for your article, Jen. My first impressions of the kit were very, very good, but I never realized the corrugation style was "incorrect".

To me, any old Junkers from that era gave a good example of what the skin looks like.

I'm not sure if the ultra fine corrugation pattern in the picture wouldn't be nigh on impossible to reproduce in 32 scale? Especially in resin, where they would be easily rubbed off by a simple touch.

 

how did you reattach the nosecone pieces?  I'd love to hear more, or do I need to wait for the article?

 

Ernie


image.jpg1_zpsubouqlgz.jpg

 

Was mich nicht umbringt macht mich stärker


#17 LSP_Kevin

LSP_Kevin

    Senior Member

  • Administrator
  • 37,353 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 10 June 2016 - 09:16 PM

That's a shame, Peter. I hope you're able to return to it later. In the meantime, the Dewoitine sounds like a good choice, and I look forward to you opening a new build thread on it!

 

Kev


  • Clunkmeister and Basilisk like this

#18 Basilisk

Basilisk

    Member

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 11 June 2016 - 06:06 AM

I came to the same conclusion with mine, the alternative being to cut away the rear ring of the cone (behind the cylinders' openings) although that would still leave a seam to clean off afterwards.

Btw, my engine "cone" was badly warped, although I am sure I can fix it with hot water. It looked to me as if SW rushed through the production to fulfill the orders, with a slight "relaxing" on QC. Still love the kit as a whole, don't misread me ;)!

Hubert

Sorry Hubert, I missed your post when I composed mine. Interesting to see the variation in quality. My cone was cast fine, but the wings are warped instead.

 

I have nearly finished this kit as a review for a future issue of AMW magazine. This was just one of the problems I came up against during construction. I got around it by cutting the rear parts of the nosecone away. I thought to build it in the sequence suggested in the photo above, but you can't do it that way because the inlet manifolds are 'Y' shaped....

 

It was an incredibly frustrating and extremely challenging build all the way through, but ironically few of the challenges arise because of the scale or the chosen medium!

 

Jen.

Thank you Jen for sharing your experience you are having with us. This confirms that I made the right decision to shelf this build. But I look forward seeing your model when finished. Maybe you can show some pictures here.

 

That's a shame, Peter. I hope you're able to return to it later. In the meantime, the Dewoitine sounds like a good choice, and I look forward to you opening a new build thread on it!

 

Kev

Maybe, but I doubt it - just too many much better made kits to build in 1/32.

 

Regarding the nosecone, mine looks fine, but it lacks lots of detail possible in 1/32.

PZL-11-9.jpg

 

And note the blanked off slots on the aircraft in Krakow. These are open in the period pictures I have seen.

PZL-11-8.jpg

 

And here a comparison of the horizontal stabilizer.

PZL-11-10.jpg

Isn't it a lovely blob representing the trim mechanism.

 

These two pictures show well how delicate the corrugation is on the PZL 11c and how thin the trailing edges are.

pzl-4.jpg

 

dsc05966.jpg

 

There is currently an interesting thread regarding rivets on models - and it can be argued, if you don't represent the rivets on the PZL 11c, then there shouldn't be any corrugation either as the rivets are more noticeable than the corrugation.

 

I love improving a kit with scratch building parts and correcting oversized trailing edges. I spent some time last night doing this on a ModelSvit Yak-1. and if it is a one part piece, I do it this way as done on my Hurricane build.

 

The more I look at this kit the more things I find done poorly. The finish is ok for a 1/72 model, but in 1/32 I expect more detail which this kit unfortunately doesn't deliver. I knew very little about the PZL 11c a week ago, but after reading the Mushroom book and looking at many pictures, at least I learned a lot about the type.

 

If I would review the kit now, I would say:

Knowing nothing about the type and just looking at the content in the box - a score of 90 as it looks marvelous.

Knowing about the type and are not concerned about the details - a score of 60 due to poor brakedown of assembly and instruction.

Knowing about the type and want an accurate model with a finish appropriate for a 1/32 model - a score of 20 as just not possible.

 

It will be interesting to see how many of these kits will get completed over the years - I think very few which is a real shame as it is such an interesting aircraft.

 

Cheers, Peter


Edited by Basilisk, 11 June 2016 - 06:23 AM.

  • dutik and BiggTim like this

#19 DeanKB

DeanKB

    Senior Member

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,296 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cardiff, Wales.

Posted 11 June 2016 - 10:04 AM

Is it possible to get that many corrugations in 1/32 in scale? 


  • Clunkmeister likes this

I've a habit of starting things and not finis


#20 AndersN

AndersN

    Senior Member

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 949 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Swedenhell

Posted 11 June 2016 - 10:23 AM

Is it possible to get that many corrugations in 1/32 in scale? 

I think there were more corrugations on the master work in progress pictures...perhaps it was not possible to cast?

edit: Nope. But I think that's the reason. More corrugations would be a pain to cast without bubbles all over.


Edited by AndersN, 11 June 2016 - 10:35 AM.


#21 Basilisk

Basilisk

    Member

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPip
  • 24 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

Posted 11 June 2016 - 12:01 PM

Of course it could be cast. I have seen much more delicate casting than just a bit of fine corrugations. As an example, see my Typhoon wheel bay. This a one piece resin casting.

 

Cheers, Peter



#22 DeanKB

DeanKB

    Senior Member

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,296 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cardiff, Wales.

Posted 11 June 2016 - 01:52 PM

Of course it could be cast. I have seen much more delicate casting than just a bit of fine corrugations. As an example, see my Typhoon wheel bay. This a one piece resin casting.

 

Cheers, Peter

 

Typhoon wheel bays look great, but I'm not sure that's comparable to the corrugation on the PZL 11c's wings?

 

I've seen absolutely beautiful & delicate resin casting, but the ability to put so many corrugations into such a small area is one I've not seen anywhere.

 

I'll drop Simon an e-mail.


  • AndersN likes this

I've a habit of starting things and not finis


#23 DeanKB

DeanKB

    Senior Member

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,296 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cardiff, Wales.

Posted 11 June 2016 - 03:18 PM

Simon replied. Although he's not seen this thread, he indicated that it's not possible to cast the corrugations any finer.

I've a habit of starting things and not finis


#24 Silver Wings

Silver Wings

    Senior Member

  • LSP Sponsors
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 563 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 12 June 2016 - 04:36 PM

Gentlemen,

 

First of all we appreciate starting this topic, where you share your tips on how to build the PZL.

We totally understand that corrugations and how it's made might be a great subject of discussion.

However, let's remember some facts: this is a resin kit (not plastic injected), this is "only" a 1/32 scale and 3d printing has limitations.

Being that said, we confirm that the number of corrugations is not the same as originally.

Simply, resin casting technology is not so sophisticated despite our best will and extensive experience  :)

 

We enjoyed releasing this special Polish fighter and hope your feeling about the kit are positive too.

Please keep sending us your remarks and comments - thanks to us, our friends and customers we can improve our products.

 

Enjoy your Sunday!

 

Simon


Edited by Silver Wings, 12 June 2016 - 04:40 PM.

  • LSP_Paul, Martinnfb, Alburymodeler and 4 others like this

#25 Red Five

Red Five

    LSP Junkie

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 155 posts

Posted 20 June 2016 - 11:22 AM

Hello

I used to do a lot of resin casting a few years back and I do agree with Simon. You can get finer but it is very difficult. I like resin kits and am very used to bits being simplified or rivets missing. Sometimes I super detail but more often I will make it more it less from the box. I think it's the paint job that makes the model. I'm quite happy with my pzl bit I may tamper with overlapping panels and positive rivets on the fuselage. It's always a decision you have to make. ...how detailed do you go?


Andrew
  • Clunkmeister likes this

#26 303sqn

303sqn

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 30 June 2016 - 07:51 PM

I came across this whilst trawling the internet. My usual scale is 1/48 but Silverwings PZL 11Cc was too tempting an opportunity, for me, to miss. Like you I became less enamoured with it once I started to build it. At times I wonder if the design had actually tried building the kit.

 

So many questions, so many problems. Too much to answer in one go I think. Lets start with the options in the kit. Think off square brackets [ ] as foot notes.

 

Serial number 8.14, 112 Eskadra. Photographed during an official visit to Stockholm in 1936. [A flight of five P.11cs led by Col Rayski participated in the opening of Bromma Airport.] A very early example, it was not fitted with bomb racks and so strictly speaking the wings in the kit are not correct for it. [The earliest examples did not have bomb racks. A small number of early examples had bomb racks fitted two bays out from the spent cartridge ejection blisters. The majority had bomb racks fitted four bays out from the spent cartridge ejection blisters.]

 

Serial number 8.66 142 Eskadra. Photograph 19th June 1938, Toruń. As I will explain later, this is not the correct serial number.

 

Two Guns or Four?

 

For the 'c' version of the P.11, provision was made for the installation of a pair of machine guns in the wings to supplement the pair in the fuselage. The P.11cs delivered to squadrons were armed with two 7.7 mm KM Wz 33 guns with 500 rounds per gun, in the fuselage. The ammunition, in steel link belts, being loaded in the sequence armour-piercing/incendiary/explosive. The two wing guns, with 300 rounds per gun, were to be installed during 1937 by Service maintenance units. However, production of the guns fell seriously behind schedule and did not become available in quantity until the summer of 1938. By this time the P.50 Jastrząb prototype was approaching completion and the Department of Aeronautics concluded that it would not be worth spending on the P.11c and stopped the fitting of additional guns. At the outbreak of war only about 20% of the aircraft had been provided with four guns. On formation of the Pursuit Brigade during mobilisation in August 1939, the following are listed.

 

111 Eskadra, three four gun, nine two gun.

112 Eskadra, one four gun, five two-gun, four P.11a.

113 Eskadra, one four gun, four two-gun, five P.11a.

114 Eskadra one four-gun, seven two-gun, four P.11a.

 

The wing guns were not liked by pilots as they affected the agility of the aircraft. It is the belief of some, for this reason, that the wing guns had been removed from most aircraft in the September Campaign. They point to the absence of any P.11cs with wing guns in the photographs of wrecked and abandoned P.11s taken by German tourists that have turned up on auction sites. So you can ignore the depictions in profiles, model kits, etc., of guns sticking out of the wings. There are in fact only five examples that can be identified from photographs of P.11cs fitted with wing guns.

 

The prototype P.11 / IV exhibited at the Paris Salon in 1934.

 

The museum P11c. Number "2" serial number 8.63 with buzz code (underwing) 39-K (black) belonging to 121 Eskadra.

 

Number "64" with buzz code 64T (black), serial number unkown belonging to 142 Eskadra, 19th June 1938.

 

Number "9" with buzz code under wing 74-S (black), exhibited at the Kraowej Aviation Exhibition in Lvov in 1938, later with 161 Eskadra with winged-ermine emblem version, serial number uknown.

 

P.11c exhibited at Milan Exhibition of Aviation in 1935 serial number unknown, probably the same airframe exhibited at WILIS in Stockholm in 1936, serial number 8.30.

 

Skalski's Aircraft?

 

That de[ends upon what you think Skalski's aircraft means. Going back 15 to 20 years the P.11c flown by Skalski in the September Campaign was said to be number 66, buzz code T-66, serial number 8.66. The origin was probably a book written by Skalski, the tile of which translates as something like 'Black Crosses Over Poland'. The book, however, in many places is at odds with Skalski's recollections. It may be that some passages in the book underwent some editorial reworking to improved the reception of the book. Therefore it should not be seen as a historical account, rather a collection of loose memories.

 

Then in an interview, 5th September 2000, Skalski emphatically stated that the aircraft he flew was number 64. “Let me add also that the inscription 'Zosia' was on the tail rather than the fuselage as it say in Black Crosses.......”. It should be noted that there were 19 pilots and ten aircraft so it should be expected that there would be a certain amount of sharing of aircraft.

 

The serial number 8.66 for 66 or 64 can be quickly discounted as 8.66 was assigned to the 3rd Air Regiment and crashed on the 7th May 1937 killing the 131 Eskadra pilot Lieutenant Włodzimierz Kujwski.

 

There are no known photographs in which 66 can be seen and all representations of it are surmised. 64 appears in two photographs taken on 19th June 1938 at a parade at Toruń. Frustratingly, most of the serial number is hidden by someone's head. It is possible to exclude some digits but not confirm what they are. Krzysztof Sikora [Mini Replika 59] is convinced that the serial number is 8.62. The recently released Modelmaker [D48057] decal sheet for Skalski's aircraft includes both 64 and 66 stating that 66 was flown by Skalski before the war until it suffered an engine failure. They use 8.62 as the serial number for 64 which I guess is as good as any.

 

Don't go thinking this is how it looked in September 1939. 141 and 142 Ekadras were unique in using two digit numbers on the side of the aircraft and the buzz codes. So aircraft number 64 would have the buzz code T-64. In August 1939, probably as part of the mobilisation process, the buzz codes were changed to three digits. In the 141 Eskadra it appears the buzz codes were altered to the side number minus 1 with a zero in the middle. E.g., aircraft number 59 changed its buzz code form T-59 to T-508. If the same rule was applied to 142 Eskadra, then T-64 would become T-603. However, it has been suggested that it might have been T-640. No explanation or the logic for this is given. It may be that it is based on a listing in Monografie Lotnicze 37 PZL P.11 part 2 that says the buzz code for number 61 as T-610. Other references say that the buzz code is not known. A photograph exists of number 61 after it was abandoned in September 1939 but the buzz code cannot be seen in it. Of course there may have been other differences. Apart from the serial number it is an accurate representation as it was in June 1938.

 

Back soon. In the meantime some moving pictures (suggestion, turn of the sound).

 

 



  • Basilisk likes this

#27 Clunkmeister

Clunkmeister

    Senior Member

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,018 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Anna, Texas

Posted 30 June 2016 - 10:13 PM

My kit is cast well. No noticeable bubbles, everything seems straight, although there is plenty of release agent on the main surfaces.

I can't see the corrugations getting any finer without sacrificing quality and durability.

 

I'll build based on pictures, and let's face it, there are very few of these left to take measurements from.

I'm just grateful for a real model of this plane


  • Martinnfb and Red Five like this

image.jpg1_zpsubouqlgz.jpg

 

Was mich nicht umbringt macht mich stärker


#28 MostlyRacers

MostlyRacers

    Senior Member

  • LSP_Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,606 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Cornod. French Jura

Posted 01 July 2016 - 06:00 AM

....

 

 ... and let's face it, there are very few of these left to take measurements from.

 

....

 

Only one left in Krakow Air Museum. The town is worth the trip alone, wherever you are, and the Museum is an obsolute "must-see". Not only you have a P-11c, but also some of the WWI German fighters that were transferred to a "safe" place in 1943 from the Berlin Air Museum. And plenty of other exhibits ... and you can get really close to the aircrafts outside ... and .. Well you see I like the place !

 

Hubert



#29 303sqn

303sqn

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts

Posted 01 July 2016 - 08:04 PM

The P11c, serial number 8.63, preserved in the Polish Aviation Museum in Krakow comes from the first series manufactured at the PZL factory at Okęcie-Paluch in 1935 fitted with a PZ Skoda-Bristol Mercury V S2 radial engine rated at 565 hp (max 600 hp). It was issued to the 121 Eskadra stationed at Krakow. It was the only machine in the unit fitted with four machine guns. Among other pilots it was probably flown by Wacław Król (officially assigned the aircraft numbered 8, he did not fly it). It is also believed that Tadeusz Arabski flew this aircraft when he shot down a Do 17(some sources record this as a probable).

 

The slightly damaged aircraft was captured by the Germans. The Germans came into possession of at least two machines from the unit, one flown by Marian Futro and the other by ppor. Chciuk. 8.63 is likely to be one of them.

 

The Germans overhauled it and put it on display in Berlin's Air Force Museum. After the museum was damaged by bombing the remaining exhibits were evacuated east to Wielkopolska province where they were discovered at Czarnkow in 1945. Subsequently it was stored in Gaskow, Pilawa and Wrocław. In 1964 it was presented to the Museum of Aviation and Astronautics (which became the Polish Aviation Museum). At first is was displayed in an incorrect scheme, which is why profiles from the 1960s and 70s are dark green with yellow bands around the rear fuselage, and for a while it had a red and white spinner. In the 1990s the 1990s the airframe was painstakingly reconstructed and the original looks recreated (with the exception of the wheels that are not original).


  • Basilisk likes this

#30 Silver Wings

Silver Wings

    Senior Member

  • LSP Sponsors
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 563 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 July 2016 - 09:43 PM

Maybe you try writing a book instead of copy pasting pieces of the aircraft's history... ;)


Edited by Silver Wings, 02 July 2016 - 02:42 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users