K5IKL Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 A question for you Navy F-4 guru's. I know that the Navy/Marine Phantoms rarely if ever carried the wing tanks and I know that the tank pylons were modified to carry weapons. How often did they, if at all, mount weapons on the outer pylon stations? Also, if they didn't carry a tank or weapons was the pylon still mounted or was the outer pylon position left blank? I have several F-4 reference books but can find very few pictures of any weapons or even the pylon being carried on the outer wing. Thanks dudes. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f8fanatic Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Outer pylons would often be left off if not loaded with ordnance. It also depends on the variant and the mission. Example, the outer pylons on Navy F-4s were commonly used to haul bombs on MERs. So, if you're building an F-4 that was flying MigCap, chances are good that the outer pylons would be left off, or at the least, empty. But a Phantom that's on an air-to-mud mission would commonly be loaded up with Rockeyes, Mk. 82's, etc. and would be more likely to have stations 1 and 9 installed and loaded up. The most common way I have ever seen the outer stations used is with MERs. Keep in mind that when Duke Cunningham and Willie Driscoll became aces, they were flying an aircraft that carried a centerline tank, a combination of Mk. 20 Rockeyes and Sidewinders(on TERs) on stations 2 and 8, and no pylons on 1 and 9 if I recall right. You are correct that USN/USMC Phantoms did not often carry wing tanks for combat sorties. Remember too, an awful lot of this depends on the specific aircraft you are modeling. Some squadrons might use different practices than others. Of course, the mission matters. You would also see rocket pods, I believe more commonly on a USMC bird, and Snakeyes too. I've always seen rocket pods on 2 and 8 when they were loaded. Then, you also might see a centerline mounted gun pod too, since the early Phantoms(and all Navy birds) had no internal cannon. Sometimes, on 2 and 8, USMC birds would have TERs installed with a couple canisters of napalm each. If you're building one that was on air-ground mission, you could always use the MER on the outside stations and leave it empty. That's how it would have looked coming back from a mission anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Williams Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) The outer wing pylon wasn't a modified tank pylon, it was a dedicated ordnance pylon. I believe that except for very early wing tanks, the pylon was integral with the tank, so the whole assembly was either on or off. Plenty of pictures around of F-4s during Vietnam carrying loaded and unloaded pylons. Just google search F-4B and F-4J. During combat ops, when one day an aircraft could be flying MiGcap, and the next day flying a bombing run, they probably just left the pylons on to reduce the workload with removing and installing them. During peacetime, they seem to have been rarely used, but it's not impossible. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/F-4J_Phantom_VF-114_in_flight_1972.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-4_Phantom_II#/media/File%3AF-4J_VF-96_Showtime_100_armed_from_below.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:F-4S_VF-74_Tu95D_1982.jpeg Edited October 21, 2017 by Dave Williams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 As what Dave said and here are a few more examples: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3e/99/2e/3e992ec1eeffe828acb660471e23c720.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/F-4J_Phantoms_on_USS_Constellation_1969.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/McDonnell_F-4Bs_dropping_bombs_1971.jpg https://www.flickr.com/photos/gone-walkabout/6837766115/sizes/l/in/photostream/ Jari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggyfoos Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 I know that the Navy/Marine Phantoms rarely if ever carried the wing tanks Not specific answer to your outer pylon ordnance question, but i just wanted to clarify that USMC F-4s in Vietnam frequently carried wing tanks with air to ground ordnance on centerline and inner pylons. Google (not limited to) VMFA-115, 314, 334 for image examples and many will show the wing tanks mounted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5IKL Posted October 21, 2017 Author Share Posted October 21, 2017 Thanks guys. Much appreciated. Lots of good information there. I knew you guys would have the answers. Jerry Bill_S 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f8fanatic Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Not specific answer to your outer pylon ordnance question, but i just wanted to clarify that USMC F-4s in Vietnam frequently carried wing tanks with air to ground ordnance on centerline and inner pylons. Google (not limited to) VMFA-115, 314, 334 for image examples and many will show the wing tanks mounted. I can think of two reasons for this. First, USMC F-4s were more likely to carry the centerline gun pod than USN jets, which would leave only two options----wing tanks, or a lot more aerial refueling. Second, the primary job for a Navy F-4 would have been as an air to air interceptor--even if bombs were carried, the Navy F-4s were still loaded for, and expected to tangle with, the MiGs....the primary job of USMC pilots is to provide cover to the Marines on the ground. Everything else is secondary for the USMC pilots. Marine pilots flying CAS missions could have to loiter in the target area for a longer period of time. By comparison, USN Phantoms that flew, for example, MiGcap missions for the strike packages off the carriers, they would fly in, escort the bombers. Bombers would drop their bombs on their assigned targets and then get outta dodge. There was no need to loiter, and often no need for the bombers to make multiple passes....drop and go. If you look at the 4 links Finn posted above, the last one is a USMC bird. Notice that it carries cluster bombs on the inner stations and bombs on the outer stations....but no Sidewinders at all. USN birds usually did not fly combat missions without sidewinders on the inner station, above the cluster bombs in that pic. During the entire Vietnam war, at least 63 USN aircraft were credited with either shooting down or sharing in the credit for shooting down enemy aircraft....by comparison, I found exactly one USMC MiG kill,an F-4 Phantom from VMFA-333 in 1972. Regarding the outside pylons, a search turns up as many photos without them installed as with. For this one, I would check the specific a/c you're looking to model. See if you can find one photo from the time period, and go with it. That's what I would do. Since the pylon was easily removable, and there are plenty of photos that show F-4s both ways, it's really a toss-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maxim Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Navy F-4's had CG issues with wing tanks full of fuel on the cat shot as the aircraft would violently pitch up after leaving the deck, hence why you very rarely see them with wing tanks except ashore if then. The Marines being shore based most of the time didn't have the same CG issues and could use the outer hard points for wing tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alaninaustria Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 I love the tripple Zuni load out!! That must have done some damage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chek Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 (edited) I suppose this is as good a place as any to note that US Navy outer wing pylons themselves hung vertically from the wing, whether with the integral tanks or whether carrying TERs or MERs. However when carrying weapons, clearance became particularly critical, especially with the bulged main gear doors for the larger wheels of the F-4J/S. The USAF pylons had never been coupled with the narrow wheels of the F-4B/N and so were always angled out at 7.5° from the wing underside. The Navy achieved the 7.5° angle by adding an adapter to the pylon underside. Tommy Thomason as ever has more to olffer on the subject. http://tailspintopics.blogspot.co.uk/2016/01/f-4-phantom-outboard-pylon-and-mer.html Edited October 26, 2017 by Chek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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