1/32 British Phantom FG.1/FGR.2 conversion for the Tamiya F-4J?

[Guest]

IIRC, didn't Harold make a F4 nose?........Harv

[Derek B]

IIRC, didn't Harold make a F4 nose?........Harv

 

I'm not sure Harvey, but I hope that Harold will chime in and confirm it for me? (I'm sure that it will be really accurate if I know Harold's work ). I do seem to recall that he may have made an RF-4C radome nose that was more accurate than the Revell kit part?

 

Cheers

 

Derek

[Barry]

Thank you Thierry, that does clarify things quite considerably for me. Some questions:

 

New nose: If I used my Revell F-4E (it could be an F-4F, not quite sure?) - mainly because it may be hard for me to get hold of a Tamiya F-4E kit - as the basis for a 'G', would the new nose also fit a Tamiya F-4E kit, or are there major differences between the two kits in terms of fuselage cross-section shape?

 

Slats: Similar question really. assuming that I cannot obtain an Isracast wing slat set as a starting point, I would have to make a new set - no real issue for me (likewise making a slatted tailplane) - but agin, would it fit both kits without major issues?

 

I am pretty sure that this would be well within the scope of my abilities and skills to make, but it sounds like it would have to be pretty inclusive and comprehensive, and would also have to fit both kits...looks like I really need a Tamiya F-4E kit as well then? What I really could do with is a detailed 'blow by blow' account of all of the differences between the F-4E and G models in order for me to assess exactly what I would need to make.

 

Cheers

 

Derek

Derek,

 

Revell F-4E/F has the Slated Wing.

Major differences betwen the "late" E and G is the Nose/Radome section.

The other major area is the Aft Cockpit; there are some others as well.

 

Two biggies for the Revell kit is the nose/radome does not have the proper shape nor are the canopies properly shaped "too flat".

 

As for same nose fitting the Tamiya kit I don't think it will.

Tamiya kit would also require the LE Slats.

 

Barry

[Barry]

I'm not sure Harvey, but I hope that Harold will chime in and confirm it for me? (I'm sure that it will be really accurate if I know Harold's work ). I do seem to recall that he may have made an RF-4C radome nose that was more accurate than the Revell kit part?

 

Cheers

 

Derek

Harold's corrected nose is for the Revell E/F.

 

Barry

[Dave Williams]

Maybe you can talk to Dave Klaus (Meteor Productions), thru his Fine Art Decal website, to get an idea how many he sold.

 

Sincerely,

Mark

 

IIRC, it was a very limited set (I believe no more than 100 were made, maybe less) and I believe there were more orders than kits actually made, so all that were available were sold.

[thierry laurent]

Thank you Thierry, that does clarify things quite considerably for me. Some questions:

 

New nose: If I used my Revell F-4E (it could be an F-4F, not quite sure?) - mainly because it may be hard for me to get hold of a Tamiya F-4E kit - as the basis for a 'G', would the new nose also fit a Tamiya F-4E kit, or are there major differences between the two kits in terms of fuselage cross-section shape?

 

Slats: Similar question really. assuming that I cannot obtain an Isracast wing slat set as a starting point, I would have to make a new set - no real issue for me (likewise making a slatted tailplane) - but agin, would it fit both kits without major issues?

 

I am pretty sure that this would be well within the scope of my abilities and skills to make, but it sounds like it would have to be pretty inclusive and comprehensive, and would also have to fit both kits...looks like I really need a Tamiya F-4E kit as well then? What I really could do with is a detailed 'blow by blow' account of all of the differences between the F-4E and G models in order for me to assess exactly what I would need to make.

 

Cheers

 

Derek

 

The F-4F kit is far more common than the E as it is regularly re-edited by Revell with different decals. Situation will possibly change with the retirement of the last Luftwaffe Phantoms. The E was originally released by Revell-Monogram. In fact they used the Revell Germany sprues and added a new sprue with slotted stabs, a corrected tail tip, two Sparrow missiles and better cockpit instument faces. Note that a limited re-edition of the E has been recently produced for Korea with Korean markings, ARNIE/TISEO/combat camera resin parts and turned pitot parts (look on e(vil)-bay).

 

The problem with the F-4F kit is the lack of slotted stabs. All other elements may be easily modified or obtained to get an E.

Cross fuselage section of the two noses is indeed different. Harold made a new nose for the Revell kit from the Tamiya one. It is not impossible to cross-kit parts for or from Revell and Tamiya Rhinos but generally don't hope for drop fit!

 

Israparts slat wing is available for the Tamiya and Revell kit already has slat wings so I think this is a moot point if we discuss F-4G.

 

Cockpit parts...well not easy! Personally, I'd prefer an accurate cockpit even if it may not be easily put into any kit! BTW, even Avionix or Aires sets especially tailored to be used with one specific kit are sometimes true pigs to use!

 

Listing all parts to create a F-4G is not the same as listing all the parts to get an accurate F-4G for a simple reason: both kits have errors and problems here and there. Tamiya is better but is a very early E. Revell is quite good and cheap but the E release is less common than the F one and there're more discrepancies...

 

If you start with the Tamiya E, you need new exhausts (CAM or other accurately scaled), slat wings (Isracast?), the chin (Fligthpath), the tail tip antenna, an eighties cockpit with specific RIO instruments and some small parts here and there.

 

If you start with the Revell F-4E, you need the belly bleeding doors (Bruce Radebaugh made good ones), a new nose (AMS), new air intakes (Sierra Hotel announced new ones for ages but the release does not seem imminent), the chin, the tail tip antenna, the specific RIO instruments (mainly the rear station IP) and some small detail parts here and there.

 

Shall I add that all F-4G decals (CAM/Airdoc/Leading edge)are OOP for ages...?

 

So, you see that whatever may be the chosen path, this is not simple!

[Derek B]

Derek,

 

Revell F-4E/F has the Slated Wing.

Major differences betwen the "late" E and G is the Nose/Radome section.

The other major area is the Aft Cockpit; there are some others as well.

 

Two biggies for the Revell kit is the nose/radome does not have the proper shape nor are the canopies properly shaped "too flat".

 

As for same nose fitting the Tamiya kit I don't think it will.

Tamiya kit would also require the LE Slats.

 

Barry

 

 

Hmmm...This is maybe the nose that Harold has tackled?

 

OK...F-4G Check list (so far?):

 

Slatted wing for the Tamiya kit.

Maybe new radome nose for the Revell kit (need to check in with Harold here).

Slatted tailplane for the revell F-4F kit.

Various radome and other 'lumps and bumps' as required (both kits).

Rear cockpit instruments (both kits).

 

I may have to make two specific F-4G conversions here - one for each of the kits. Correcting the Revell kit canopy will be a problem, but not insurmountable...if I were to make such a thing it could be applicable to all revell Phantoms, so maybe worth considering as another separate correction part? (I am aware that there are also cockpit floor depth differences).

 

Thanks

 

Derek

 

(PS Time to dig out your Pave Spike and Pave Knife info' Barry - I am about ready to start these soon! ).

[thierry laurent]

Releasing conversion sets is one thing but correcting discrepancies is a pre-requisite to my eyes! Indeed, I do not consider really useful to get parts to convert a kit if the main discrepancies cannot be corrected beforehand. Moreover, such sets may be sold whatever type has been chosen by the modeller, requiring or not a conversion set.

 

Accordingly, I do NOT understand why we've still to wait for corrected air intakes!?! They may be used on ALL Revell Phantoms! Similarly, releasing a small set with TISEO/ARNIE and other late parts such as the one added in the current Korean re-issue is something which shall have been done for at least 10 years!

 

I've yet to understand why nobody has taken such an opportunity considering that thousands of Revell Phantoms have been sold... Personally, after two E, two F, two RF-4C and a RF-4E, I just purchased my my eigth Revell Rhino (the Korean issue)! Don't ask me how much air intake correction sets I'd purchase as the correction is far from being an easy job...

[thierry laurent]

Time to dig out your Pave Spike and Pave Knife info' Barry - I am about ready to start these soon! ).

 

Alleluia!

 

My comments related to the air intakes may apply as well to the canopies...

[Barry]

Correcting the Revell kit canopy will be a problem, but not insurmountable...if I were to make such a thing it could be applicable to all revell Phantoms, so maybe worth considering as another separate correction part? (I am aware that there are also cockpit floor depth differences).

 

Thanks

 

Derek

 

(PS Time to dig out your Pave Spike and Pave Knife info' Barry - I am about ready to start these soon! ).

 

I'll start churning on the Pods.

 

Barry

[Derek B]

The F-4F kit is far more common than the E as it is regularly re-edited by Revell with different decals. Situation will possibly change with the retirement of the last Luftwaffe Phantoms. The E was originally released by Revell-Monogram. In fact they used the Revell Germany sprues and added a new sprue with slotted stabs, a corrected tail tip, two Sparrow missiles and better cockpit instument faces. Note that a limited re-edition of the E has been recently produced for Korea with Korean markings, ARNIE/TISEO/combat camera resin parts and turned pitot parts (look on e(vil)-bay).

 

The problem with the F-4F kit is the lack of slotted stabs. All other elements may be easily modified or obtained to get an E.

Cross fuselage section of the two noses is indeed different. Harold made a new nose for the Revell kit from the Tamiya one. It is not impossible to cross-kit parts for or from Revell and Tamiya Rhinos but generally don't hope for drop fit!

 

Israparts slat wing is available for the Tamiya and Revell kit already has slat wings so I think this is a moot point if we discuss F-4G.

 

Cockpit parts...well not easy! Personally, I'd prefer an accurate cockpit even if it may not be easily put into any kit! BTW, even Avionix or Aires sets especially tailored to be used with one specific kit are sometimes true pigs to use!

 

Listing all parts to create a F-4G is not the same as listing all the parts to get an accurate F-4G for a simple reason: both kits have errors and problems here and there. Tamiya is better but is a very early E. Revell is quite good and cheap but the E release is less common than the F one and there're more discrepancies...

 

If you start with the Tamiya E, you need new exhausts (CAM or other accurately scaled), slat wings (Isracast?), the chin (Fligthpath), the tail tip antenna, an eighties cockpit with specific RIO instruments and some small parts here and there.

 

If you start with the Revell F-4E, you need the belly bleeding doors (Bruce Radebaugh made good ones), a new nose (AMS), new air intakes (Sierra Hotel announced new ones for ages but the release does not seem imminent), the chin, the tail tip antenna, the specific RIO instruments (mainly the rear station IP) and some small detail parts here and there.

 

Shall I add that all F-4G decals (CAM/Airdoc/Leading edge)are OOP for ages...?

 

So, you see that whatever may be the chosen path, this is not simple!

 

I knew that I could rely on you for a detailed assessment Thierry - thanks

 

I see. It all depends upon which kit most modelleras would prefer to convert (I guess Tamiya here?), availability of F-4 kits and how much they want to pay? Sounds like if I were to concentrate on only one F-4G conversion, it may have to be for the Tamiya F-4E kit, but I could then make it comprehensive and detailed, so it would then be a 'one stop' affair - does this sound sensible?

 

You are correct about the markings...same issue as the F-4K/M conversion?

 

Thanks

 

Derek

[thierry laurent]

I see. It all depends upon which kit most modelleras would prefer to convert (I guess Tamiya here?), availability of F-4 kits and how much they want to pay? Sounds like if I were to concentrate on only one F-4G conversion, it may have to be for the Tamiya F-4E kit, but I could then make it comprehensive and detailed, so it would then be a 'one stop' affair - does this sound sensible?

Derek

 

Frankly speaking, I don't know which approach is the best: Revell or Tamiya as in the end both options will be quite expensive if you want an accurate result.

 

Moreover, each kit is not really easy to find. You may still purchase one overseas but with the p&p and customs fee, this is still expensive.

 

Another noticeable problem for the Revell kit is the too skinny front LG leg. Flightpath made a very detailed correction set for the Revell E/F but it is far from being cheap.

 

Personally, If I had to create a line of products for the Rhino, I'd use a modular approach: release a maximum of small cheap sets:

 

- canopy set (useful for all Revell kits)

- air intake set (ditto)

- front LG leg set (ditto)

- belly bleeding doors (ditto)

- late E instrument panel set (useful for F-4F kit conversion)

- slotted stabilators (useful for F-4F kit conversion and for RF-4B conversion)

- arnie/tiseo set (useful for F-4E)

- new "E" nose (useful for F-4E, F-4F and F-4G conversion)

- new Recco nose (useful for RF-4C, RF-4E and for RF-4B conversion)

- G conversion (limited to chin pod, tail tip, rear station instruments and antennae)

- hard wing (useful for early F-4E)

- RF-4B conversion (Navy parts)

 

etc. etc.

 

So the modeller would have to build his own shopping list according to the kit he has and the result he wants to obtain.

[Derek B]

Releasing conversion sets is one thing but correcting discrepancies is a pre-requisite to my eyes! Indeed, I do not consider really useful to get parts to convert a kit if the main discrepancies cannot be corrected beforehand. Moreover, such sets may be sold whatever type has been chosen by the modeller, requiring or not a conversion set.

 

Accordingly, I do NOT understand why we've still to wait for corrected air intakes!?! They may be used on ALL Revell Phantoms! Similarly, releasing a small set with TISEO/ARNIE and other late parts such as the one added in the current Korean re-issue is something which shall have been done for at least 10 years!

 

I've yet to understand why nobody has taken such an opportunity considering that thousands of Revell Phantoms have been sold... Personally, after two E, two F, two RF-4C and a RF-4E, I just purchased my my eigth Revell Rhino (the Korean issue)! Don't ask me how much air intake correction sets I'd purchase as the correction is far from being an easy job...

 

This is all really good stuff Thierry, and is helping me to crystallise my thoughts along various lines of defined accessories - thanks.

 

So far, I can see a need for the following in 1/32 scale for F-4 Phantom kits:

 

1. Interest in an F-4K/M (FG.1/FGR.2) conversion set for the Tamiya F-4J kit, providing that it is not too expensive or complex and includes some form of markings. If this proves poular, maybe more detailed specific British Phantom accessories could follow?

 

2. An all in comprehensive conversion set for the Tamiya F-4E to make into an F-4G Wild Weasle, again, with markings.

 

3. Correction sets specifically for the Revell kit, the chief ones being seamless intakes and deeper canopy.

 

4. Other accessories that would be applicable to both Tamiya and Revell kits.

 

Derek

[Derek B]

Frankly speaking, I don't know which approach is the best: Revell or Tamiya as in the end both options will be quite expensive if you want an accurate result.

 

Moreover, each kit is not really easy to find. You may still purchase one overseas but with the p&p and customs fee, this is still expensive.

 

Another noticeable problem for the Revell kit is the too skinny front LG leg. Flightpath made a very detailed correction set for the Revell E/F but it is far from being cheap.

 

Personally, If I had to create a line of products for the Rhino, I'd use a modular approach: release a maximum of small cheap sets:

 

- canopy set (useful for all Revell kits)

- air intake set (ditto)

- front LG leg set (ditto)

- belly bleeding doors (ditto)

- late E instrument panel set (useful for F-4F kit conversion)

- slotted stabilators (useful for F-4F kit conversion and for RF-4B conversion)

- arnie/tiseo set (useful for F-4E)

- new "E" nose (useful for F-4E, F-4F and F-4G conversion)

- new Recco nose (useful for RF-4C, RF-4E and for RF-4B conversion)

- G conversion (limited to chin pod, tail tip, rear station instruments and antennae)

- hard wing (useful for early F-4E)

- RF-4B conversion (Navy parts)

 

etc. etc.

 

So the modeller would have to build his own shopping list according to the kit he has and the result he wants to obtain.

 

Sounds like we are getting there now! - sensible list. The belly bleed doors? are these the ones that run down either side of the nose wheel bay on the lower fuselage, or the two auxiliary doors close to the undercarraige bays under the wing?

 

Thanks

 

Derek

[thierry laurent]

Sounds like we are getting there now! - sensible list. The belly bleed doors? are these the ones that run down either side of the nose wheel bay on the lower fuselage, or the two auxiliary doors close to the undercarraige bays under the wing?

 

Thanks

 

Derek

 

The doors are located close to the central pylon. Bruce released them more than one year ago. I added them for the sake of comprehensiveness.

 

Look here:

 

http://partsrparts.homestead.com/F4parts.html