Tom liked it...I didn't, Kinetic's Sabre ..getting a face lift. Options

[GVINCENT]

ummmm so Mr. Williamj, will you be offering your correction parts for sale?

That is what's on my mind!

Please? (I'll take 2 sets!)

Gary V.

[Boise Kent]

Bill I'm sure that plenty of MDC Arado owners would like to have a set of your vac parts.They look better than the resin bits but then again they're a bit thinner than the resin.Great bits for a great kit.Again well done my friend...cheers

Count me in!

[Lee White]

Count me in!

Ummm, don't wanna stir the pot, but would selling these be legal, or ethical? Radu's post suggested it would be OK for personal use, but he might have something to say about selling these for profit......

Lee

[LSP_Kevin]

Ummm, don't wanna stir the pot, but would selling these be legal, or ethical? Radu's post suggested it would be OK for personal use, but he might have something to say about selling these for profit......

Lee

I can't see how it differs from any other individual or company making aftermarket alternatives for any other kit. Where's the problem?

Kev

[Radub]

This is a very tricky issue.

A while ago, I got involved in a row on another forum on the issue of copying - my decals and artwork were shamelessly copied and made available for sale (a guy was copying them with a laser photocopier - really shoddy and grotty 5h1t). All sorts of arguments were used in defence of this guy's actions: "they are cheaper", "the original decals are out of print", "not a lot of money was made out of the sales", "these are depictions of historical items that do not belong to you", "who the hell do you think you are?" etc. Reasons and excuses can be found very easily (I also learned the hard way that the author gets little sympathy.)

Who is right? Who is wrong? You have to use your own moral compass. It takes months to make something. It takes hours to copy it. This is demoralising and soul destroying for the author. And little by little, that chips away at the author's enthusiasm. Eventually, he or she will stop doing this. And, in the long run, those who lose are you!

When I made those canopies, I carved a mould out of miliput, then I copied them in resin, then I vacformed the clear parts using the resin parts as moulds, then I polished them and scribed them. In other words, I designed and manufactured them from scratch. I can show ample evidence of that process, in the sense that I have the masters and the cast-offs as well as plenty of photographs of the proces. This process took me about three weeks and it involved the procurement of a few different tools and materials. I did the research, development and manufacture. I am the author.

If these are a straight copy of my parts in another material, then that is all they are, a copy. The fact that it is a different material is irrelevant if the shapes, dimensions, panel lines, openings, breakdown are identical. It is as if someone takes a resin figure and casts it in metal. It is as if someone takes a printed book and scans it in electronic format. There is no research, development and manufacture involved in that - it is a straight copy.

If those parts are the result of research, development and manufacture carried out by a third party, then it is all OK. (Making a resin copy and using it as a submaster is not R&D. )

I have no problem if these are intended for personal use or if William wants to give a few copies to his friends. The sale and advertising of copies may be a moral issue and you have to figure out for yourselves if you want to be a part of it.

I am aware that William will not make a fortune out of this. In fact, the money is not the issue. The issue is the act of copying in itself and the fact that it may set a precedent. After all, if someone can find a "reason" to make copies, what will stop someone from copying the entire kit in another material and sell it?

All of the above is simply a description of how I feel from my position of "father" of the "Arado Project". It is not a criticism of anyone in particular (no ofence has been caused so far) and it is not an invitation to a row either.
I will not reply to any comments about the issue "why" there was a need for these canopies, it has nothing to do with me.

Radu

PS For a while, I have been toying with the idea of reworking the Arado. It may happen, it may not.

[LSP_Kevin]

Nice to hear your perspective Radu, and I fully understand it. Perhaps you should offer vac replacements for the Arado canopies yourself and market them through your own company? There is obviously a demand, albeit probably only small. Alternatively, if you feel it isn't worth doing due to the small volume, you could come to an arrangement with William to allow him to make a fixed number and pass them on at cost to anyone who would like them. I'm sure there are other possibilities as well.

Kev

[Radub]

Hi Kevin,
As I said above, these vacform Ar234 canopies may not work.
1. These are "draped" vacform pieces cast over male moulds that appear to be based on the kit clear parts. The resin clear parts that come with the kit are intended to conform to the fuselage. Draped parts will inevitably be larger (by an ammount equal to the thickness of the clear material) and will not conform to the fuselage. Ideally, a female mould would be the best - such parts will conform to the fuselage.
2. The nose of the Arado consists of an internal framework that the clear parts attach to. That internal framework was made in such a way as to take into consideration the thickness of the resin clear parts. Vacform parts will simply be too loose around those frames. A totally new internal framework will need to be made and the cockpit tub will need to be adjusted to take the thinner parts.
That is why a "vacform nose" requires a bit more work, in fact it requires a partial rework of the nose area.

Anyway, this thread is about the F86 and William is doing some great work there. I suggest that we return to that subject.

Radu

[williamj]

Hi Kevin,
As I said above, these vacform Ar234 canopies may not work.
1. These are "draped" vacform pieces cast over male moulds that appear to be based on the kit clear parts. The resin clear parts that come with the kit are intended to conform to the fuselage. Draped parts will inevitably be larger (by an ammount equal to the thickness of the clear material) and will not conform to the fuselage. Ideally, a female mould would be the best - such parts will conform to the fuselage.
2. The nose of the Arado consists of an internal framework that the clear parts attach to. That internal framework was made in such a way as to take into consideration the thickness of the resin clear parts. Vacform parts will simply be too loose around those frames. A totally new internal framework will need to be made and the cockpit tub will need to be adjusted to take the thinner parts.
That is why a "vacform nose" requires a bit more work, in fact it requires a partial rework of the nose area.

Anyway, this thread is about the F86 and William is doing some great work there. I suggest that we return to that subject.

Radu

Radub... these were "sized" Took an internal cast from the clear resin parts and built it up in layers just short of the outside fus. dimension ,some reshaping as the resin was uneven in thickness in places.. it took some time,my masters do not resemble yours . then cast it in Pu resin ,this was then polished. just draping the acetate over the existing parts would result in too large a copy.and yes the internal supports will have to be built up with strip to compensate for the thinner vac form. As far as making a large number of sets available for sale.don't know if the time or energy is there to be honest, but if I want to.. cetainly I would have think about the acceptability of it. ,sending a few sets out to friends only, who can't build their Arado's because the clear parts resemble semi melted swiss cheese,thats the reason there here. we'll see how it goes. For now though I'm getting back to work on the Sabre.Cheers.

[williamj]

ummmm so Mr. Williamj, will you be offering your correction parts for sale?

That is what's on my mind!

Please? (I'll take 2 sets!)

Gary V.

I may make the Sabre set available...nose,canopy,gun troughs. my poor old vac machine is just about kaput though,would have to replace it. :^)

[Radub]

Radub... these were "sized" Took an internal cast from the clear resin parts and built it up in layers just short of the outside fus. dimension ,some reshaping as the resin was uneven in thickness in places.. it took some time,my masters do not resemble yours . then cast it in Pu resin ,this was then polished. just draping the acetate over the existing parts would result in too large a copy.and yes the internal supports will have to be built up with strip to compensate for the thinner vac form. As far as making a large number of sets available for sale.don't know if the time or energy is there to be honest, but if I want to.. cetainly I would have think about the acceptability of it. ,sending a few sets out to friends only, who can't build their Arado's because the clear parts resemble semi melted swiss cheese,thats the reason there here. we'll see how it goes. For now though I'm getting back to work on the Sabre.Cheers.

Thanks for clarifying that William. That sounds like it is a new product rather than a copy. If that is the case, then I have no say in this, it is your work.
All the best with it,
Radu

[GVINCENT]

Hello all,

I didn't mean to start any controversy but I did admire the Sabre pieces. I don't own the AR 234 as much as I would like to!

Anyway, Mr. William J. if you do decide to produce the SABRE pieces, I would like to know about it!

Keep up the good work William & Radu!

Again, sorry if I started something, it was not intentional.

Gary Vincent

[williamj]

Hello all,

I didn't mean to start any controversy but I did admire the Sabre pieces. I don't own the AR 234 as much as I would like to!

Anyway, Mr. William J. if you do decide to produce the SABRE pieces, I would like to know about it!

Keep up the good work William & Radu!

Again, sorry if I started something, it was not intentional.

Gary Vincent

Thanks. Just might do..if all goes well with the build.definately post here and let you know.
William J Lawlor (Bill) williamj109@yahoo.ca.

[Old Dog Flying]

Hi Bill: The question is...have you got the Golden Hawks decals to make it a real SWORD?????? By the way I'm still working on the electrics for the RCAF 1000 project. The Clark tractor needs a bit of weathering. I'll send some pics when I'm done.

Cheers
Barney

[williamj]

Hi Bill: The question is...have you got the Golden Hawks decals to make it a real SWORD?????? By the way I'm still working on the electrics for the RCAF 1000 project. The Clark tractor needs a bit of weathering. I'll send some pics when I'm done.

Cheers
Barney

Love to see those Barney...going to look the part beside that beautiful DC3 you mastered.

[LSP_Ray]

Hi Bill: The question is...have you got the Golden Hawks decals to make it a real SWORD??????

You know, I might just have a set of those decals! Would have to dive into the stash to check. I have no plans on doing a Golden Hawk, are you interested, Bill?