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Rivet templates


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#1 airscale

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 03:43 PM

so here is the spot to discuss what is what with templates

 

..while I hadn't thought of doing marketable tools as that is likely sewn up by others, there is a need to make these in the bigger scales like 1/18th

 

we were having a chat in Geoff's P51 thread

 

this is the kind of thing in mind - at standard UK & US head sizes & spacings - this is 'Fine' spacing @ 1.13mm in 1/18 scale

 

WIP41_zpsw6chxhxr.jpg

 

questions like what is a good size / length of template - I have done 7cm x 3.5mm and 18cm x 3.5mm but I need to print them on paper to work out if that is ergonomic or not

 

so guys, pile in..

 

Peter

 


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#2 MARU5137

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 04:12 PM

Peter,

 

that looks like a sure winner ..

I bet it get used massively as it looks like it is SO useful and impressive bit  of'engineering on your part.

Jolly good show. :clap2: :clap2:


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#3 MostlyRacers

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 06:57 AM

Great idea. Having followed through the exchange in Geoff's Mustang thread, I will add one comment : make the ends of the templates square and not rounded, to have an extra perpendicular edge against which to rest your template. Does my wording make sense ?

Hubert

#4 airscale

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 08:43 AM

that is a good shout Hubert - I rounded them so as not to scratch the surface being worked, but I can straighten them and just ever so slightly round the corners so they are harmless..

 

thank you :)


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#5 dodgem37

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Posted 27 March 2016 - 10:53 AM

'what is a good size / length of template - I have done 7cm x 3.5mm and 18cm x 3.5mm'

Well, here goes.  In for a dime, in for a dollar.  Rightly or wrongly, this is what I see:

This is short and narrow.  7cm x 3.5mm is  2 3/4 inches x 1/8th inch.  This length is good for tight spaces or for a smaller scale, I think.  To me, it would take forever to rivet a 1/24th or 1/18th if one has to relocate the template after every 2 3/4 inches.

 

1/8 inch seems narrow to me.  Vertically: At 1/8 inch wide, and there being 3 perforations in vertical alignment per intersection, each intersection is a weakness.  It is a kink waiting to happen.

 

Horizontally: At 1.13; Why .13?  Why not .10?  or even 1.00?  Both divide into 1.00 evenly.  Does the .03/.13mm difference really matter?  Real life tolerances found on manufacturers' drawings, drawings used to make items, not construct them (construction drawings), have tolerances greater than .03/.13mm, allowing for expansion and contraction.  Two rows of perforations 1/2mm apart is a weakness and a bend waiting to happen.

 

The product needs to have elasticity, to be able to bend, and with all of those perforations, I think stainless steel would be about the only material that wouldn't accidentally kink.  Material thickness would help to minimize accidental bending.

 

18cm x 3.5: I think is a good length for 1/32nd and has use in 1/24th and 1/18th scales.  It's 7 inches long.  For 1/18th, where the horizontal stabilizer is probably 7 inches long, and a wingspan and fuselage each are close to 24 inches or some such thing, I think it is workable.

 

I think what will determine this products' success or failure is not its' idea, but its' material and thickness.

 

Just my take.  Other's mileage may vary.

Sincerely,

Mark

 


        Works in Progress:   Italeri 1/35 PT596Tamiya P-51D, Sinai, 1956,

            Completed WiP:  Erich Hartmann, Bf109G-14

                        Idle WiP:  Fw190A-5 Black 7 1/25th IDF Sho't, c.1982Bf109K-4, I./KG (J)6, BohemiaHungarian Bf109G-14, Bf109F-4/Z Trop,Shelf of DOOM!: Kawanishi N1K1 Kyofu Type 11 Rex , IDF AH-1 Tzefa FWerfer-Granate 21's,

   Ready for Inspection: Erich Hartmann, Bf109G-14, Ludwig Franzisket, Bf109G-6


#6 Rainer Hoffmann

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 10:00 AM

Yes,I want those!

 

I guess, 1mm and 1.5 mm spacing would be just about right for my purposes. I agree, that the template needs to be somewhat flexible, so I probably wouldn't use brass but rather stainless steel or similar material (what we call "Neusilber" in german).

 

I would take the short and the long one, both have it's merits.

 

There is still the problem of how to do the intersections correctly (as Geoff mentioned over in the other thread). That is indeed the biggest issue for me.

 

Peter, once you've finalized those riveting templates I'll be certainly in for a few!

 

Cheers

Rainer



#7 airscale

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 11:31 AM

Hi all,

 

sorry, slightly wrong end of the stick :)

 

I have no intention of marketing these - they were just to assist big builds for a few on here working with metal skinning, and were going to sit on my Spit fret which is being done in nickel silver

 

If we want to talk about preparing a fret for stainless steel, that is easy enough to do, and a full sheet with maybe 30 templates would be I guess £60 incl VAT so maybe we can club together or something

 

I am not sure about producing for sale though as 1.) we don't really do tools :) and 2.) it would need to be usable & durable whereas these were considered just to help a few modellers along..

 

Mark -thanks for the feedback - I have revised the sizes as you are right -I used those sizes as that is what fitted in the space I had - have made them 7cm x 0.8mm and 18cm x 0.8mm

 

Also for the sizes, I originally intended the hole to be the size of the rivet so a pencil mark yould be left, but following Geoffs thoughts I hav scaled the hole to go with the UMM jewelers tool for a 0.32mm rivet - this is the most common allied size scaled down to 1/18. Now the template can be used to guide the tool rather than just for marking out

 

I have also combined all rivet pitches onto one template, and put 'starter notches' at the beginning of each row...

 

WIP59_zpsj2fyu0iy.jpg

 

keep the feedback coming - maybe if the design works and people are interested I could sell 1/32 & 1/24 versions...

 

TTFN

 

Peter


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#8 Rainer Hoffmann

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 01:38 PM

I have no intention of marketing these

 

oops, I certainly did misunderstand that...

 

 

maybe 30 templates would be I guess £60 incl VAT so maybe we can club together or something

 

 

Ah, if that is possible, you can count me in, please!

 

Cheers

Rainer


Edited by Rainer Hoffmann, 28 March 2016 - 02:29 PM.


#9 dodgem37

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 03:48 PM

'keep the feedback coming'

Further thoughts while driving.  I was thinking of alternative materials as a possible solution to the possibility of bending and kinking of metal and came up with nylon or paper.

 

Nylon and paper are not materials that can be etched, but they can be perforated and printed onto.  Holes can be perforated, lines can be printed.  It can have a lightly adhesive back so it can be placed in position and removed without marring the surface.  Nylon is sturdy enough to take the penetration of a metal tool and retain it's shape without alteration.  To a degree.

 

Paper can be a one-off solution.  Paper is thin enough that one can template an entire section, having paper overlap paper, and not be concerned with material thickness that would alter the location of the rivet.

 

Additional thoughts.  To me, the laying of line after line of templates increases the chance for variation.  Whether the variation is a wave in the placement of the template or a misalignment with another template.

 

What came to mind is using adhesive backed nylon or paper panel templates, much like canopy masking templates.  The panel can be perforated, and printed with alignment guides.  Or just printed with rivet locations and alignment guides.  Misalignment between panels would be easy and faster to correct than using lines of templates.  Templates would have to be model specific.  Templates can be initially made as one makes a template; from the kits' panels: drawn, printed, cut out, and attached to the kit and refined.  Once 'perfected', they would be die-cut.

 

Hope I'm not getting carried away.  If I am, please accept my apology.

Sincerely,

Mark


        Works in Progress:   Italeri 1/35 PT596Tamiya P-51D, Sinai, 1956,

            Completed WiP:  Erich Hartmann, Bf109G-14

                        Idle WiP:  Fw190A-5 Black 7 1/25th IDF Sho't, c.1982Bf109K-4, I./KG (J)6, BohemiaHungarian Bf109G-14, Bf109F-4/Z Trop,Shelf of DOOM!: Kawanishi N1K1 Kyofu Type 11 Rex , IDF AH-1 Tzefa FWerfer-Granate 21's,

   Ready for Inspection: Erich Hartmann, Bf109G-14, Ludwig Franzisket, Bf109G-6


#10 Rainer Hoffmann

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 07:15 AM

Some more thoughts.

 

It might be difficult to align the rivets correctly. Could it be helpful to have the rivet pattern at the edge of the template, like so?

 

template.jpg

 

And I agree with Mark, it would be perfect to have a transparent material. But I guess, that would be a real challenge as etching would not work. Anyway, just thinking...

 

Cheers

Rainer


Edited by Rainer Hoffmann, 30 March 2016 - 07:16 AM.


#11 airscale

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 11:09 AM

Some more thoughts.

 

It might be difficult to align the rivets correctly. Could it be helpful to have the rivet pattern at the edge of the template, like so?

 

template.jpg

 

And I agree with Mark, it would be perfect to have a transparent material. But I guess, that would be a real challenge as etching would not work. Anyway, just thinking...

 

Cheers

Rainer

 

 

thats a great idea!

 

shame I saw it after sending the artwork for etching!

 

I will get the templates back in a week or two - then you can road test them and we can refine and get a few sets in stainless steel

 

keep those ideas coming :)

 

Peter


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#12 Rainer Hoffmann

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 12:20 PM

Some more thinking...

 

For the rivet patterns located at the edge of the template it might be useful to have triangular "cutouts" instead of semi-circles. That would allow different diameter beading tools to be used with the same rivet pitch.

 

Would that make sense?

 

Cheers

Rainer


Edited by Rainer Hoffmann, 30 March 2016 - 12:21 PM.


#13 dennismcc

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 12:47 PM

MDC make a 1/32 scale rivetting template, http://www.modeldesi...ivet maker 1/32

 

Cheers

 

Dennis



#14 airscale

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 12:15 PM

seems to work...

 

needs to be stainless steel though as I can see it will bend otherwise..

 

WIP100_zpsf6graqmt.jpg

 

the test ones are on their way :)


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#15 dodgem37

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 01:46 PM

Good show, Peter.

 

Sincerely,

Mark


        Works in Progress:   Italeri 1/35 PT596Tamiya P-51D, Sinai, 1956,

            Completed WiP:  Erich Hartmann, Bf109G-14

                        Idle WiP:  Fw190A-5 Black 7 1/25th IDF Sho't, c.1982Bf109K-4, I./KG (J)6, BohemiaHungarian Bf109G-14, Bf109F-4/Z Trop,Shelf of DOOM!: Kawanishi N1K1 Kyofu Type 11 Rex , IDF AH-1 Tzefa FWerfer-Granate 21's,

   Ready for Inspection: Erich Hartmann, Bf109G-14, Ludwig Franzisket, Bf109G-6





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