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Israeli A-4N Conversion?


otis252

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I do agree from that angle it does appear that trumpeter has more of an upward point, but the top is a straight line.  If this was true it would be too short.  Trumpeter does have the second upward curve which looks more accurate than the Hasegawa.  I do have all three kits and tonight after dinner I will be pulling them out.  I will do some tracings on the nose and scan them in so they can be compared with actual plans.  I will also attempt to get some good pics of the intake differences.

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Trumpeter does have the second upward curve which looks more accurate than the Hasegawa.

agreed. didn't noticed this.

 

 

The Trumpeter kit nose above is the one from E/F kit isn't it? The M kit has the ARBS nose.

i do not know, found the pic on google images... I'd like to add a (IDF) Scooter in my stash but I do not if it's better a H or a N and which is the better starting kit.

Edited by Luca
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So, here's the bottom line. The sprue picture from the Trumpeter kit above is from their E or F kit, not their M kit. The nose in that sprue shot lacks the ARBS nose, plus the section of the cockpit sill visible indicates that it's an earlier model than the M/N.

 

If you want to make an IAF A-4E/F/H, you can start with either the Hasegawa kit, or the Trumpeter E or F kits (which actually have identical plastic). For an A-4N, the only reasonable starting point is is the Trumpeter M kit. For a IAF TA-4, your only choice is the Hasegawa TA-4 kit.

 

Regarding conversions, I think the only IAF conversions for the Hasegawa kit are the long OOP CE conversions.

 

http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/a4hreviewcedw_1.htm

 

Note that the CE conversions lack the bulged intakes for the IAF A-4s with the upgraded P-408 engine, which means that you may also need to find the old CE Super Fox conversion intakes, or the AMS Resin enlarged intakes for the Hasegawa kit.

 

Both Wolfpack and Wingman/Isracast made IAF conversions for the Trumpeter kit, and they should be easier to find than the old CE conversions for Hasegawa. AMS Resin also made bulged intakes for the Trumpeter kits, which again are not in the IAF conversions. Generally, you are going to find more aftermarket still available for the Trumpeter kit than for the old Hasegawa kit.

 

Regarding accuracy, the Hasegawa kits are a little more accurate than the Trumpeter kits (there are tweak lists for the Trumpeter kits around here somewhere), but the Trumpeter kits are more detailed and have recessed panel lines. In particular, the center panel on the Trumpeter E/F windscreen is wrong (Alley Cat mad a clear resin correction windscreen, though).

 

For which one to build, I'd say you'll need to look at which version you want to build, and look at the availability of the conversion/correction parts you'll need to make an IAF version.

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The Trumpeter M intakes are bulged, but the AMS ones are a bit better in that they are one piece. Also, the kit lacks the larger right fuselage side air intake, which is another reason to get the AMS set, since that is included.

 

This is the set you want.

 

http://store.spruebrothers.com/product_p/ams32062.htm

Edited by Dave Williams
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Pictures can be so deceiving.  Here are the outlines.  I could not find a trusted A-4 drawing so anyone can be the judge for what they like.  The Gray area is the Hasegawa.  The Red is the A-4E/F and the Blue is the A-4M without the tip section.

 

A-4.gif

 

So what can we draw from this?  To me the Hasegawa is longer and fatter which throws off the look.  Trumpeter has that second ever so slight upward curve which appears so apparent at least to me on the real thing.  To each his own.

Edited by nichenson
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Now for the intakes.  All three kits have identical pieces granted they are in different orientations on the sprue so all of them need Harold's really nice enlarged intakes.  What was a bit confusing to me is that Israel did apparently have some A-4E's before they received the H's.  The H and subsequent N have the extended tail whereas the E's do not.  Anyway, do as above and get Harold's intakes.  They will work for either the H and N.

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Israel received Skyhawks directly from the Navy as well as Phantoms from the USAF to replace aircrafts lost during the initial phase of the Kippur war. This explains why they got some Es besides the order of their specific Hs.

 

Did not know that.  It gets so confusing with all of Isreal's stuff.  I have learned that if you want to build something you have to find pics of that plane or tank and go from there.  They were very resourceful and used what they could and adapted what they couldn't.  The tank side is even a bit scarier as it seems no two were alike.

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The extended tailpipe was a post YKW mod that was eventually applied to IAF A-4 models in service, and not a feature of a specific model. A-4Hs and even early A-4Ns didn't have them at first. As delivered, the A-4H was just an A-4F without the hump, but having the top of the tail squared off, and a braking parachute under the exhaust. They even came with 20mm cannons. All of the features that most people associate with IAF A-4E/F/Hs, like the 30mm cannon, tail pipe extension, avionics humps, and upgraded engine with the bulged air intakes, were a series of modification packages added over time, and they weren't all added at once, so it was possible to see some A-4s with only some of the mods before they eventually got all of them fitted. In the end, the F and H models were got the full set of upgrades to become essentially A-4Ns. About the only way to tell a upgrade from an as-built N is by looking at the canopy (E/F/Hs had the original canopy that was different from the M/N canopy and windscreen), and the top of the tail (the H and N had the squared off tail, while the E/F retained the curved tail top). Also, if the aircraft had the cranked refueling probe, it wasn't an H since they retained the straight probe throughout their lives. Finally, the IAF E models never got the engine mod, so they never had the bulged intakes. Also the E models never got the avionics mods that required the hump, and if it came with the hump, it was eventually removed (it was empty anyway).

 

The best sources of info on IAF Skyhawks is the Isradecal book, however the Osprey book on IAF A-4s is quite good too. HTH.

Edited by Dave Williams
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Now for the intakes.  All three kits have identical pieces granted they are in different orientations on the sprue so all of them need Harold's really nice enlarged intakes.  What was a bit confusing to me is that Israel did apparently have some A-4E's before they received the H's.  The H and subsequent N have the extended tail whereas the E's do not.  Anyway, do as above and get Harold's intakes.  They will work for either the H and N.

Here are some of my walkarounds

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/a-4e/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/a-4f/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/a-4h/

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/a-4n/

Isaac

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My question is - the USN flew in some A-4F's as emergency spares to make up for losses during the YKW. I've seen one pic of a grey/white USN bird sitting at a base in Israel with the USN and national markings painted out. Just wondering if any of them flew combat missions painted like that.

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