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SG 500 Jagerfaust - Master pattern completed


Derek B

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Great work, Derek and thanks for showing us how this is done on a step-by-step basis.

Question: how did this installation affect the flight characteristics of the host Me 163 - to me it would appear to alter airflow over the wing significantly.

Just curious, thanks, Sinuhe.

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Great work, Derek and thanks for showing us how this is done on a step-by-step basis.

Question: how did this installation affect the flight characteristics of the host Me 163 - to me it would appear to alter airflow over the wing significantly.

Just curious, thanks, Sinuhe.

 

Hello Sinuhe,

 

Thank you for the kind words. According to the 'Me 163 - Rocket Interceptor' (Vols. 1 & 2, Ian Allen publications Luftwaffe Classics) by Stephen Ransom and Hans-Hermann Cammann, the installation of the SG 500 weapon had no effect whatsoever on the flight characteristics of the Me 163.

 

Derek

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Might need some assistance here from the Luftwaffe experten crew, as I am still trying to fine tune the wing Balkenkreuz paint masks from Mal Mayfield's Miracle Masks before they are produced, and of course, I would like to get this right before they are produced.

 

The Me 163B Komet appears to have had at least two variations of insignia throught their operational career. The upper wing marking appears to have been a black/white/black cross for the majority of Me 163B aircraft for most of the war years, but it appears that the same cross had the black parts removed from them - leaving a white 'skeletal' cross - pattern on some aircraft towards the end of the war. There is photographic evidence that at least two destroyed Me 163B aircraft of 2/JG 400 had such white upper wing cross markings markings, so I am satisfied that these would be correct for this SG 500 detail set, although it would be nice to confirm their dimensions?

 

The real problem I have is confirming the correct dimensions and location for the lower wing Balkenkreuz. In this case, all lower wing crosses appear to have been black/white/black. The first style looks to be a large cross that effectively takes up nearly the whole of the wing chord fron the leading edge slot to the elevon hinge line. The second style is the same in apperance, but is physically much smaller (may be the same size as the upper wing black/white/black cross?). My suspicion is that the SG 500 equipped aircraft would have the smaller cross (we are talking April 1945 here). Again, I need to confirm the size and position of this lower wing cross as well please?

 

I am using the standard Hasegawa decals as my size guide at the moment and I know that the SG 500 weapon tubes ran through the chord centre line of the upper wing Balkenkreuz. On most Komets, the lower wing balkenkreuz is placed just outboard of the flap, but the location of the smaller version may be further out towards the tip - if this is so, then I am hoping that the inboard arm of the Balkenkreuz will be just outboard of the lower wing SG 500 tubes?

 

If it is confirmed that the smaller Balkenkreuz is correct for the Komet, I would be grateful if anyone could indicate what size and position they should be (as well as all of the other insignia - i.e. Fuselage Balkenkreuz and Swastika), as I may have to have the masks altered and more importantly, the kit decals (which I intended to suggest using as a modified alternative to the paint masks) may well be unusable because they may be incorrect for this period?

 

Many thanks

 

Derek

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

I'm coming a bit late to this party, but I've found a new (to me) colour picture of the SG500 mounting in a YouTube video. It's here

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sEtc8fRQnrQ#t=15s

 

and also seems to confirm Derek's reasoning for the mounting for the electronic sensor for firing, as there is a small bare metal panel on the upper wing at mod-chord. Note that this is not the same airframe as the colour pic above; this has bare metal panels around.

 

Padraic

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I'm coming a bit late to this party, but I've found a new (to me) colour picture of the SG500 mounting in a YouTube video. It's here

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sEtc8fRQnrQ#t=15s

 

and also seems to confirm Derek's reasoning for the mounting for the electronic sensor for firing, as there is a small bare metal panel on the upper wing at mod-chord. Note that this is not the same airframe as the colour pic above; this has bare metal panels around.

 

Padraic

 

Excellent Padraic - Thank you. I have not seen that video before (I only had the two 'stills' from this footage to work from, but I think that you are right about the optical trigger sensor location) - comforting to know!

 

Cheers

 

Derek

Edited by Derek B
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Having peered at this film for ages, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that the SG500 equipped Me163 wreck in the film and the nose of the 163 marked with the 'Die Schwarze 13' badge that follows at 26 secs or so are one and the same. This conclusion is based upon:

  • Both wrecks have debris within their mid section pointing vertically upwards and to port
  • The lighting for both is from starboard casting shadows to port
  • Both wrecks are slightly nose down
  • Both appear to be Dark Green/Braunviolett
  • The same grey sand is apparent underfoot

The immediate proximity of both airframes within the film may also be a factor, but I haven't relied upon that.

 

Out of additional interest, notice the nose of the Me 163 at 11-19 secs at centre left (above the SG500 muzzles of the wreck). This also appears to have a yellow nose in the same manner as 'Black 13'.

 

Would anyone like to chip in?

 

Padraic

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Having peered at this film for ages, I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that the SG500 equipped Me163 wreck in the film and the nose of the 163 marked with the 'Die Schwarze 13' badge that follows at 26 secs or so are one and the same. This conclusion is based upon:

  • Both wrecks have debris within their mid section pointing vertically upwards and to port
  • The lighting for both is from starboard casting shadows to port
  • Both wrecks are slightly nose down
  • Both appear to be Dark Green/Braunviolett
  • The same grey sand is apparent underfoot

The immediate proximity of both airframes within the film may also be a factor, but I haven't relied upon that.

 

Out of additional interest, notice the nose of the Me 163 at 11-19 secs at centre left (above the SG500 muzzles of the wreck). This also appears to have a yellow nose in the same manner as 'Black 13'.

 

Would anyone like to chip in?

 

Padraic

 

Hi Padriac,

 

Do you think that you could you get some 'screen grabs' to substantiate this?

 

Thanks

 

Derek

Edited by Derek B
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Hi Derek. Here we go.

 

First the upper view of the SG500 equipped Me 163

 

Me163SG500annotated.jpg

 

 

Now the front view of 'Die Schwarze 13'

 

Me163Shwarze13.jpg

 

What do you think? I know this stretched my pic uploading skills to the limit :)

 

Padraic

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Hi Padraic,

 

the only recognisable evidence that I can see as a direct correlation between the two images is one piece of debris - a metal disc (see pictures below) that may be the same item (the chances of it not being so are pretty slim). If this is so, then yes, I would agree that it is indeed the same aircraft, which in itself opens up some very interesting and intriguing possibilities?...

 

Brandis1a_zps6280acb9.png

 

Brandis2_zpsc5968573.png

 

Regards

 

Derek

Edited by Derek B
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Derek thats excellent work! I looked for just that disc in the film shot from above, having seen it on the nose shot, but couldn't see it. Your screen grab skills exceed mine by some way :)

 

Sadly the aircraft number is not known; I think I've read elsewhere that the nose badge refers to the Staffel (I will check this). As you say, intruiging...

 

Best wishes

 

Padraic

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Derek thats excellent work! I looked for just that disc in the film shot from above, having seen it on the nose shot, but couldn't see it. Your screen grab skills exceed mine by some way :)

 

Sadly the aircraft number is not known; I think I've read elsewhere that the nose badge refers to the Staffel (I will check this). As you say, intruiging...

 

Best wishes

 

Padraic

 

Hi Padraic,

 

I think that I will run this across Stephen Ransom and Rob de Bie for their comment. My chief source of reference material for the Me 163 Komet is the Luftwaffe Classic publication 'Me 163 - Rocket Interceptor' (Vols 1 and 2) by Stephen Ransom and Hans-Hermann Cammann.

 

In Vol 2, page 279, the caption for this noseart photograph states that according to Uffz. Werner Husemann, three or four JG.400 Me 163's featured this artwork and was regarded as a personal badge of several pilots who were superstitious by nature - Lt. 'Frtz' Kelb included!

 

According to the same source 'Black 13' was not an official unit badge and was not associated with 13./EJG.2.

 

Regards

 

Derek

Edited by Derek B
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Hi Derek

 

I'll be very interested to hear what Stephen and Rob have to say. I love these pictures of Luftwaffe graveyards and the insights that they can provide.

 

Thanks too for the additional info; I'll check my references to see if I can uncover anything else

 

Best wishes

 

Padraic

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What an interesting find here Padraic, Derek,

 

Further into the video Padraic kindly provided there is a head on shot of yet another SG500 Komet. I beleve Derek provided this same aircraft picture from a slightly different angel earlier in this article. ( This was also the original basis of the conversion , if i'm not mistaken) ?

Now we have a full head on view of both upper wing surfaces on this particular SG500 Komet. In the head on view in hte video, is it my imagination or is there furhter evidence of the electronic optical triggered sensor on the starboard wing on this aircraft? A black looking spot located on the starboard wing area perhaps? The location is inboard of the upper white wing cross. I have to admit was really skeptical of this whole concept initally. Now I'm really excited here. (Thanks Derek!) What an interesting topic of discussion.

 

The first few second frame of the viedo show the RLM 76 Komet. If only the video were taken at a slightly different angel this might have shed further evidence on yet another jagerfaust SG500 bird.

 

Last comment: Would you assume the " Die Schwarxe 13" jagerfaust was a post- production modification? The new exposed wooden area on the upper wing surface would suggest this and the other Komet video shows a completely camouflaged upper wing surface with jagerfaust tubes area painted in the upper wing RLM camouflage.

 

Thanks for sharing this new inforamtion Gent's.

 

Regards,

 

Troy

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What an interesting find here Padraic, Derek,

 

Further into the video Padraic kindly provided there is a head on shot of yet another SG500 Komet.  I beleve Derek provided this same aircraft picture from a slightly different angel earlier in this article.  ( This was also the original basis of the conversion , if i'm not mistaken) ?

Now we have a full head on view of both upper wing surfaces on this particular SG500 Komet.  In the head on view in hte video,  is it my imagination or is there furhter evidence of the electronic optical triggered sensor on the starboard wing on this aircraft?  A black looking spot located on the starboard wing area perhaps?  The location is inboard of the upper white wing cross.  I have to admit was really skeptical of this whole concept initally.  Now I'm really excited here.  (Thanks Derek!)  What an interesting topic of discussion. 

 

The first few second frame of the viedo show the RLM 76 Komet.  If only the video were taken at a slightly different angel this might have shed further evidence on yet another jagerfaust SG500 bird. 

 

Last comment:  Would you assume the " Die Schwarxe 13" jagerfaust was a post- production modification?  The new exposed wooden area on the upper wing surface would suggest this and the other Komet video shows a completely camouflaged upper wing surface with jagerfaust tubes area painted in the upper wing RLM camouflage. 

 

Thanks for sharing this new inforamtion Gent's.

 

Regards,

 

Troy

 

Hello Troy,

 

It is interesting, isn't it?

 

I have contacted Stephen Ransom, Co-aurthor of the Luftwaffe Classic book 'Me 163 - Rocket Interceptor, and Rob de Bie, owner of the Me 163B Komet website, so it will be interesting to see what comments those two gentlemen have on this matter?

 

I shall answer you with what I know on this subject Troy. The opening sequence does show what appears to most likely be a Me 163B-0 in RLM 65 (most likely one of the BV development arcraft) - it appears to be standard.

 

The frontal colour view of the camouflaged Me 163B with the red nose band (which I did indeed use of my box art and instruction sheet) is at the same angle as my artwork, as it is a still from this video. However, you are right in as far as it does reveal more of the right wing, so we can now see the SG 500 vertical shot weapon holes in that wing also. Based on Wolfgang Spate's comments in the above mentioned book, I deduced that the logical location for the optical trigger sensor would most likely have been the forward upper wing access panel This is the hole that you see on the right wing in the photograph  (the panel has been removed) - Spate stated that the optical trigger sensor/cell would be mounted on the left wing. 

 

If you look at the other SG 500 equipped Komet left wing at the opening sequence of the video, you can see that the modification had been hastily done, with bare areas of wood and metal surrounding the SG 500 tube holes. What is interesting here is the rectangular hole inboard of the Balkenkruez where the forward access panel would normally be situated - I believe that this may be have been the location point for the optical trigger sensor, and if it proves to be so, then my educated guess will have been vindicated.

 

As far as I know all of the SG 500 weapon conversion and modification work was carried out on the Brandis airfield with the assistance of civilian HASAG personnel (the weapons came with the 5 cm rounds pre-loaded within the tubes), so there would not have been any pre- or post modifications as such.

 

Regards

 

Derek

Edited by Derek B
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