RLWP Posted February 22, 2018 Share Posted February 22, 2018 The kit and the printed drawings fit amazingly well? You probably found the set of drawings used to make the kit Richard mattlow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkarlsen Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Don't know if you are aware, but I think (but check it out as I could be wrong) the early V versions had a narrower front fuselage with a different profile. When they added wheeled undercarriage they widened the fuselage to allow for it. The Kagero work by Murawski refers to this on page 20 (early edition). The front glass was slightly different too. I found this out as I was planning to do a V8 using an old MDC Ar234 I have in the stash. The resin kit would be a pain to alter, which is why I didn't get any further, but it may be possible with the Fly kit. Looking forward to seeing the results. Yeah I know, the fuselage was 20 cm narrower on the V's and slightly more v' shaped.at the bottom. The canopy was also very much slimmer, it was a really nice design, making the later 'wheeled' design looking almost clumsy in comparison. I'm not too concerned with the fuselage, the major issue will be getting a nice cockpit canopy glazing. Right now I'm trying to get my bearings straight if there are other differences. A drawing showing the 'Seitenleitwerk' differences... (Strahlflugzeug Arado Ar 234 "Blitz" by Manfred Griel) sandokan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkarlsen Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 You probably found the set of drawings used to make the kit Richard I don't think so, the plans are of the Arado Ar 234 A I think it's more likely Fly used the plans mentioned by Matt earlier from Aero Detail 16 by Shigeru Nohara. Cheers: Kent RLWP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkarlsen Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) It is a BMW 6cyl. Great thank you! I think you 'nailed it' Maybe a BMW M78? There certainly are many similarities... Regards: Kent Edited February 23, 2018 by kkarlsen LSP_Kevin, Dany Boy and sandokan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkarlsen Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Now I'm really confused... I knew there would be an issue with the rudder. So while trying to find the differences between the early rudder and the production rudder using the 'Seitenleitwerk' plan, postet earlier, it has become evident that it's not as straight forward as I expected... Superimposing the different plans, keeping a close eye on the correct measurements, this is the result: The Arado Ar 234 A plan is completely coinciding with the 'Seitenleitwerk' drawing, showing the smaller rudder of the prototypes. Now when I try to fit the Fly kit fuselage and rudder to the superimposed drawings, the issue is quite evident. It looks like the rudder of the Fly kit is also having the A' model smaller rudder??? It doesn't get better when I superimpose the plans from Aero Detail 16, the rudder is larger, but not enough, according to the 'Seitenleitwerk' detail of the rudder. Please, I could really use some help here!!! Sincerely: Kent sandokan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattlow Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 If you have a dimensioned (i.e. measurements given) drawing that you are happy is depicting the 234A smaller rudder (I didn't even realise they were different) the I'd go with that. It is quite plausible that FLY took something they found with measurements on and used it for their kit. Aero Detail drawings are, in my experience, not to be trusted. They produced the drawings that Trumpeter faithfully followed for their 1/24 FW 190D-9, look where that got them! I don't know enough about the 234A to speak with any authority, but prototypes are notorious for changing as they're developed. Study photos and see if you can spot the changes... you'll probably quickly have paid more attention than most have on the subject, which will make your decisions as valid as anyone else's. Matt Gazzas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nichenson Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 You wouldn't want to invert any naturally aspirated engine especially without a redesign of the oil system. Regardless, each engine has certain characteristics that you can easily identify the maker even if they have a similar layout. This can be as simple as a bolt pattern or something as strange as in this case as the flywheel housing. That housing has an extension where the bolts attach. This creates bumpouts. You can see this in your pic. Anyway, another way is the location of the distributor. BMW has the distributor further up on the driver's side as well as an accessory off of its shaft as in your pic. That may be a vacuum advance, but I am not sure. Lastly, the exhaust and intake ports are on the same side. That in itself is unique to a handful of engines as it is hard to keep the intake air cool. Everything else is pretty much essential accessories that can be placed in various configurations and the piping can be however they need it. I don't know the exact model number but they were used quite often in generators for searchlights so I am certain they would have these all over the various airfields. I did look for something that would use this in 1/32 scale, but without any success. There are several searchlight kits in 1/35 but the generators that go with them do not include engine detail. I did find a couple of websites that may help. http://americanaeroservices.com/searchlight-generators/ http://www.milweb.net/webvert/75661 There may, of course, be an in between the wars plane that used a similar engine as the inline 6 was used quite a bit. Great thank you! I think you 'nailed it' Maybe a BMW M78? There certainly are many similarities... Regards: Kent sandokan and kkarlsen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgem37 Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Try this guy for Arado info. His offerings may be of help. https://www.luftfahrt-archiv-hafner.de/ See the left side Menu. Sincerely, Mark kkarlsen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkarlsen Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Hmm... Maybe my German just isn't good enough, or the Author Manfred Griehl of the Arado book has made an error? 'Diese Werkzeichnung vom 21.02.1944 vergleicht die unterschiedlichen Formen des alten und des neuen, vergrösserten Leitwerks der Arado 234-Serienausführung B-2' This text is accompanying the 'Seitenleitwerk' drawing and it had me confused. Almost all drawings and profiles I have seen have the larger rudder, so I had to change the tactics... I've tried to superimpose the drawing over some photos of Arado B-1 and B-2 models and this is what came out... In short, I haven't been able to find any photos of Ar 234 B's showing a larger rudder... But many of the profiles and drawings of Arado's show the larger rudder? I guess it's a curse of 'copy & paste' seen too many times on the internet... Just an example, the profile shows a late B-2N with the narrow rudder and the bottom profile of a C-model with a large rudder. Another example: Here both profiles show the larger rudder, even the V15!!! The mystery however isn't solved, the Arado 'Werkzeichnung' is real, but which models (if any) had the larger rudder? Maybe a late C, but I haven't found any evidence of this anywhere... On the bright side, the Fly model seams to be correct and it isn't necessary to convert the rudder on the V6/V8 or the B-2 'Fernaufklärer... Kent Trak-Tor, sandokan and Dany Boy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 But many of the profiles and drawings of Arado's show the larger rudder? What you have learned is that profiles and drawings are as much a model of the original aeroplane as a kit is. They are based on what the draughtsman knew at the time together with whatever research they have done, then presented with their best intentions. It wouldn't be the first time I have found published drawings to be inaccurate - mostly because I now have access to more information than the drawer did at the time Your research tells you to use the smaller rudder - result! Richard kkarlsen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkarlsen Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 You wouldn't want to invert any naturally aspirated engine especially without a redesign of the oil system. Regardless, each engine has certain characteristics that you can easily identify the maker even if they have a similar layout. This can be as simple as a bolt pattern or something as strange as in this case as the flywheel housing. That housing has an extension where the bolts attach. This creates bumpouts. You can see this in your pic. Anyway, another way is the location of the distributor. BMW has the distributor further up on the driver's side as well as an accessory off of its shaft as in your pic. That may be a vacuum advance, but I am not sure. Lastly, the exhaust and intake ports are on the same side. That in itself is unique to a handful of engines as it is hard to keep the intake air cool. Everything else is pretty much essential accessories that can be placed in various configurations and the piping can be however they need it. I don't know the exact model number but they were used quite often in generators for searchlights so I am certain they would have these all over the various airfields. I did look for something that would use this in 1/32 scale, but without any success. There are several searchlight kits in 1/35 but the generators that go with them do not include engine detail. I did find a couple of websites that may help. http://americanaeroservices.com/searchlight-generators/ http://www.milweb.net/webvert/75661 There may, of course, be an in between the wars plane that used a similar engine as the inline 6 was used quite a bit. Wow I'm very grateful for this info! This is why this forum is so great! The complete knowledge of everybody in this forum is simply magnificent, thank you! Kind regards: Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trak-Tor Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) I love the research you guys are doing around this.It's as much enjoyable as the modeling process itself. Keep it coming! Juraj Edited February 23, 2018 by Trak-Tor CANicoll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkarlsen Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) So, while were at it, dare I put up the question of the camouflage colors? I'm pretty sure the colors of the V6/V8 would have been standard RLM 70/71 Schwarzgrün and Dunkelgrün with RLM 65 Heliblau undersides... But maybe it's not that simple for the late 1944 Arado Ar 234 B-2? The obvious answer would be RLM 81 Braunviolet and RLM 82 Hell- or RLM 83 Dunkelgrün over RLM 76 Hellgrau?... I'm a novice when it comes to luftwaffe camouflage colors and I really could need some help with this. But I must say I'm having trouble with some Arado builds having camouflage colors showing a lot of contrast. In this photo it's almost impossible to notice the pattern and the contrast seems to be almost non existent? This rare color photo is not helping... This is how I imagine the colors for a late Arado, but I don't know what paints have been used... Maybe it's not a question of RLM numbers at all? Any input on this subject? Regards: Kent Edited February 23, 2018 by kkarlsen sandokan and KiwiZac 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kkarlsen Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) Warming up for this build, I'm expecting some of the panel lines will have to be altered and other adjustments will require some extra work and filling. I haven't tried this before but now is a good a time as any, to see if it does the trick. A homebrew putty from cut pieces of sprue from the kit, dissolved in glue. lets see how this goes... Edited February 23, 2018 by kkarlsen CANicoll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBrown Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 So, while were at it, dare I put up the question of the camouflage colors? I'm pretty sure the colors of the V6/V8 would have been standard RLM 70/71 Schwarzgrün and Dunkelgrün with RLM 65 Heliblau undersides... But maybe it's not that simple for the late 1944 Arado Ar 234 B-2? The obvious answer would be RLM 81 Braunviolet and RLM 82 Hell- or RLM 83 Dunkelgrün over RLM 76 Hellgrau?... I'm a novice when it comes to luftwaffe camouflage colors and I really could need some help with this. But I must say I'm having trouble with some Arado builds having camouflage colors showing a lot of contrast. In this photo it's almost impossible to notice the pattern and the contrast seems to be almost non existent? This rare color photo is not helping... This is how I imagine the colors for a late Arado, but I don't know what paints have been used... Maybe it's not a question of RLM numbers at all? Any input on this subject? Regards: Kent Original directives for the Ar 234 specified RLM 70/71 over 65. But these colors were subsequently superseded by 81/82 and 76. Here is a image of a machine in RLM 76 undersurfaces and (most likely) Arado's version of 81/82 on the uppers. Gigant, Tolga ULGUR, KiwiZac and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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