LSP_Ray Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 So as I understand it, the Tamiya floor is too shallow to clear the separate FLG wheel well. So if we add the two thicknesses of plastic, we probably have like 5 scale inches or more of structure instead of the thin amount of metal that actually is there on the real thing. Sounds to me like the only way to make it work would be to cast the wheel well with the cockpit. I do not know if that is possible as I can't get to my kits right now. IIRC, there is a metal screw in there somewhere just to make this more difficult. This may be a case of not-to-scale-due-to-molding limitations. Similar to how it is near impossible to have a scale engine that will fit in compartments where the wall thicknesses are 1-2 inches thick instead of the 1 mm real panels. phasephantomphixer, Harold and Derek B 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngtiger1 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 OK guys let me throw this info out to you. the height of the top of the seat is a fixed height. The chute pack and back of the seat are a fixed item. the seat bucket is moveable up and down to adjust for the pilots sitting height. If you compare all the AM seats, you'll find that must of them have the same size seat bucket but the location on the back rails varies and thus the height is different. the seat doesn't move for & back to adjust for his leg length, the rudder pedals crank for&back to adjust for that. So, where the problems are encountered is if an AM company goes out and measures a seat in the cockpit from the bottom of the bucket to the top of the seat the measurements can vary based on whether the seat bucket is run full up or down which is why when you look at pictures of how a seat sits in a cockpit in relation to the side consoles it varies. the constant factor is the relation of the chute pack and top of the seat(ejection handle area) To properly position any AM seat in any cockpit, look at side view shots and position the seat so the chute pack/top of seat sits in all cockpits. Then you live with the height of the bucket in relation to the side consoles. Bruce Harold and Youngtiger1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 TLAR: That Looks About Right I have some measuring equipment that is calibrated in this scale! Derek D.B. Andrus, Barry and Harold 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert Boillot Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) @Jennings and Bruce, I understand fully well the constraints. And yes, some adjustments need to be made, mainly because of the thickness of the plastic compared to the thin metal of the real A/C (Harold's point about the width of the OV-10 seats. If the consoles' width is kept, then the seat tub is reduced ipso facto because of cockpit wall thickness. So even AM producers will have to make a compromise (same for the diameter of a raidial engine vs a cowling outside diameter) This said, Barry's photo does not only show differences of height and width of the seats in total. Details like the width of the headrest, head pack, etc. vary very noticeably. And this is not just to compromise fitting the seat in a given plastic tub. Besides, Bruce's point shows that the seat bucket can be moved up or down on the rails to adjust total seat length. At least the head-pack and chute pack should all be the same, which is obviously not the case. I stand by my "surprise". Hubert Edited May 20, 2015 by MostlyRacers Harold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek B Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 As a matter of interest, the same issue also applies to both versions of the Revell and Kinetic Hawk kits as well. Derek Harold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I admire Barry's precision and efforts to overcome inaccuracies. However, I don't mind the 1/8th ins too high floor or the incorrectly sloping rear bulkhead as I'm building mine hoods-down for the most part (although the Tamiya parts are 'posable'). I ask myself this question when building: will it bother me in 3-5 years after the model is completed ? If so, then it gets more attention. Most of the time it stays as-is. I'd like to finish twenty more 1/32 models before I snuff it. The discrepancies between the seats are astonishing. Makes me want to stick to Tamiya, if only for standardisation ! Tony EmperorKai and Harold 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunwinglow Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Wall thickness issues with the plastic moulding process are going to throw a bit of a spanner in the works too. A plastic kit wall thickness is going to be about 1 to 1.5mm, scaled up that's an inch and a half in eyeball units, so even if the outside surfaces are nominally 'correct', the inside ones are going to be way off. TLAR is a splendid system of measurement. We have a similar process for colours, as our designers frequently ask for 'happier' colours, or 'more medical' colours, or 'edgy' colours. We sometimes remix, but sometimes, (don't tell them for goodness' sake!) we take the same sample swatches back half and hour later, and they invariably say, 'Wow, yes, that is SOOOO much better!' Sometimes people just need to feel they are involved somehow...... Tim Derek B and Harold 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Wall thickness issues with the plastic moulding process are going to throw a bit of a spanner in the works too. A plastic kit wall thickness is going to be about 1 to 1.5mm, scaled up that's an inch and a half in eyeball units, so even if the outside surfaces are nominally 'correct', the inside ones are going to be way off. TLAR is a splendid system of measurement. We have a similar process for colours, as our designers frequently ask for 'happier' colours, or 'more medical' colours, or 'edgy' colours. We sometimes remix, but sometimes, (don't tell them for goodness' sake!) we take the same sample swatches back half and hour later, and they invariably say, 'Wow, yes, that is SOOOO much better!' Sometimes people just need to feel they are involved somehow...... Tim I had an old hair cut client that never was satisfied with her cuts. So, one time I told her I will re-cut it and see if it is better....I went through a complete "cut", while never touching her hair with blades. After I was through, i asked her what she thought....guess? She told me I finally got it right!!!!! Then I told her to look at the floor and tell me what you see. "uh, nothing". Yep, nothing, no hair, I didn't cut it again. She was floored, and apologized for the hard time she had always given me. Too funny. D.B. Andrus and Derek B 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I'll toss in a comment about the seats that I haven't seen mentioned or maybe I mentioned it before. One has to remember that the seat bucket is moveable. The chute pack at the top of the seat and the seat rails are static. It has been my contention that when some manufacturers went out to an airplane and measured / photographed a seat in a cockpit the bucket could have been at different heights which would vary the bucket relation to the side consoles. If a crew chief had raised the bucket full up to inspect under the seat for lost objects or a tall pilot had been in the seat it could be run full down. A seat out of the cockpit could have the same problem. Look at a side profile of the a/c and you'll see exactly how high up the chute packs should be. That is the standard a modeler should use to judge placement of the seat in a cockpit tub. If a person measures a Revell front cockpit from the canopy rail to the side console and from the side console to the bottom of the tub, the Revell front cockpit is right on. Revell's rear cockpit from the console to the bottom of the tub is right on but from the canopy to the side console is too deep by about 1/8th inch. Tamiya's tub from the canopy rails to the side console in both the front and rear tubs is right on but the depth of both tubs are too shallow and "should" be the depth of the Revell's tubs from the consoles to the floor. It is a dilemma , Bruce allthumbs and Harold 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I'm with Hubert on this. The only major issue as far as I can see (given that the bottom of the seat can be ground away etc) is the major divergence in parachute packs - the bit that is most noticeable when you look at the kit. http://www.eduard.com/store/out/media/632001.pdf I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Eduard Brassin set I bought : e.g. substitute the "too square shaped" parachute packs with sawn off bits-box Revell or kit Tamiya headrest parts, or bypass the Brassin. My own requirements are two-fold at this juncture: * bl**dy hurry up Eduard or HGW and do some fri**in fabric straps. Posing preprinted etch is a Royal PITA. * cockpit sill and seat placards in decal form - I shall be working on those this summer. All other issues forgiven Mt kit makers Tony Harold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmperorKai Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Awesome comparison Barry! Personally, I like to know the inaccuracies of kits so I can judge for myself whether it merits extra modeling attention or not. For me, the biggest revelation here is how each of the aftermarket F-4 seats differ. Your excellent post does a great job of illustrating which ones work best with the respective kits, and why. So for some, while 4 scale inches may not rise to the level of scratchbuilding a new cockpit, having this information to evaluate the best aftermarket seat to use is incredibly valuable. Heaven knows how much I've spent on aftermarket that ultimately I can't use because it's not a good match for the kit, poorly fitted or not detailed to my tastes. Kai Harold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) I'm with Hubert on this. The only major issue as far as I can see (given that the bottom of the seat can be ground away etc) is the major divergence in parachute packs - the bit that is most noticeable when you look at the kit. http://www.eduard.com/store/out/media/632001.pdf I'm trying to figure out what to do with the Eduard Brassin set I bought : e.g. substitute the "too square shaped" parachute packs with sawn off bits-box Revell or kit Tamiya headrest parts, or bypass the Brassin. My own requirements are two-fold at this juncture: * bl**dy hurry up Eduard or HGW and do some fri**in fabric straps. Posing preprinted etch is a Royal PITA. * cockpit sill and seat placards in decal form - I shall be working on those this summer. All other issues forgiven Mt kit makers Tony I did a correction seat pac for the Brassin seat some time ago. I only charged shipping (and "handling" for the packaging), but was attacked by someone for ripping people off...(really, right here on LSP). Edited July 12, 2015 by Harold azzaob, EmperorKai and Tony T 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony T Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Looks really good Harold. I'd be up for two sets (enough for four Mk.7 seats) Tony Harold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Looks really good Harold. I'd be up for two sets (enough for four Mk.7 seats) Tony I will have to find the molds... I found the master!! Edited July 12, 2015 by Harold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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