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HK B-17...D??? 12/11 bins for bullets

scratchbuild hk models B-17 metal rivets

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#1 brahman104

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 10:56 AM

So I see a few of the ongoing B-17 build threads are getting bumped back into the forums, which is a good thing, but it's finally given me the incentive to "get my B-17 on!" There's some very talented people some some great work on these awesome kits and it does seem they have to potential to overwhelm you very easily if you aren't careful.

So clearly I'm not, so here's the plan. Take one HK B-17G and with some fairly major surgery, attempt to turn it into something resembling a D. Yes, I know a lot of you right now are questioning my sanity in wanting to cut up a fairly expensive kit with little to no guarantee of success, but isn't that what modelling's all about?

The way I look at it is this. HK did an exceptional job in making the dream a reality, but I for one have always been bothered about the shape of the fuselage, especially around the nose. I know this has been talked about practically to death and a few people have got pretty wound up over the topic. I'm not a rivet counter, so to me if it looks right, then it is. I'm doing this purely for my own enjoyment and to see if it can actually be done, as to my knowledge no one else has tried this, and I very much doubt HK is going to bring out a shark tail anytime soon!

I also thought that with the other builds being G's and maybe one or two F's getting a run when they finally come on the scene, it would be nice to see something a bit different. This will certainly be the ultimate test of my not very considerable modelling skills at the moment.

So here's the plan: I have the Koster 1/48 conversion, which I think together with the old monogram G, is definitely the closest thing to capturing the true lines of the fort so that's what I'm basing my conversion on. Using his instructions on what bits to remove where, I'm pretty much doing the same thing, just upscaling to 1/32. At the end of the day, I will still have to scratch build the entire rear fuselage and for the most part the nose, not only to get the right contours but also due to it being shorter. Because I don't understand CAD, here's the grand plan on paper......


IMG_4128_zps6c861de2.jpg
Yep, pretty inspiring isn't it! Actually, despite how it looks, I'm pretty happy with the outline I've come up with, referencing it back to the monogram offering, and this is where most of my dimensions will come from. It may not be accurate, but as I said, at least it SHOULD look like a D!

The other thing I had to start doing, to get a clearer picture of the difference in dimensions, was to start cutting some of the plastic (gulp). I'm sure most of you are aware of the size, but in case you aren't, check this out...

IMG_4124_zpsa539d1bc.jpg

Yep, she's a big girl!

The first cut was to separate the upper turtle deck into left and right halves, so they could be attached to the rest of the fuselage so I had a proper indication of the overall height.

IMG_4125_zps32725338.jpg

Then, as alluded to in Koster's drawings, as the nose is some 14.3mm shorter than the G, so too the cockpit will have to allow for this (and due to the extra glazing and seats) so I separated it before it changed cross section.

IMG_4126_zps58d38691.jpg

With the remainder of the turtle deck glued on, I now put on marks where I was going to cut the forward and rear fuselage. The centre section thankfully remained pretty much unchanged in terms of shape and the wings are the same too (otherwise it definitely would've been in the "too hard" basket!).

IMG_4127_zps8c113fa2.jpg

From here it'll be a case of remove the extra, then construct solid patterns of the fuselage to vacuum form over the top of.

As with all the other B-17 builds, this will be slow, but the first cut has been done so I'm well on my way. I hope you'll join me on this journey :)

Thanks for looking, Craig

P.S. Sorry about the pics, I thought photo bucket had rotated them for me.... I'll do better next time :)


Edited by brahman104, 12 November 2017 - 05:45 AM.

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#2 LSP_Kevin

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:09 PM

Ambitious project Craig! Should be fun to follow along. Photos look fine by the way.

 

Kev


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#3 Loic

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:16 PM

I'll follow this build for sure !

That sounds like quite a mad project Craig... I like this  ;)

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


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Cheers!________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In the work :   Dornier Do 335   /   A-1H/J Skyraider   /   Mirage F1 (Scratchbuild)  /  Mirage IIIC

Completed builds :   Hawker Tempest (kitbash)   /   Nakajima B5N Kate (Scratchbuild)   /   Spitfire Mk I

Master pattern work:   DB-603 Engine    /   F4U-1 Corsair engine bay 


#4 dennismcc

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 12:55 PM

Very brave, but it will be nice to see an early Fortress

 

Cheers

 

Dennis


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#5 Iain (32SIG)

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Posted 22 December 2014 - 01:21 PM

Excellent - I have an ID Models 'shark fin' B-17 - was considering cross-kitting with the HK Models kits at some point...

 

Great project - will be following like glue!  :thumbsup:

 

And, if it's any consolation, I think you're completely sane - but then I'm probably not best placed to comment on sanity.  ;)

 

Iain


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1280-4.jpg

 

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#6 brahman104

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 03:55 AM

Excellent - I have an ID Models 'shark fin' B-17 - was considering cross-kitting with the HK Models kits at some point...

 

Great project - will be following like glue!  :thumbsup:

 

And, if it's any consolation, I think you're completely sane - but then I'm probably not best placed to comment on sanity.  ;)

 

Iain

Hi Iain,

 

I had no idea there was an ID models shark fin out there, I best be googling!

 

Cheers mate,

 

Craig


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#7 mywifehatesmodels

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 05:05 AM

Go get 'em, Craig! This should be EPIC!

 

Do you take your pics with a smart phone? I do and have found that I have rotation issues with my PC and photobucket, sometimes. I THINK it happens with the screen-rotation enabled on the phone and taking pics with the phone basically parallel to the floor/ground. Seems to mess with the photo and which direction it "thinks" it should be viewed from. I've made it a point to hold the phone at a slight angle (top of the screen up a bit) when taking pics and it does seem to help. :shrug:

 

Very much looking forward to your build!

 

John


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#8 LSP_Kevin

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 05:55 AM

This is definitely one of the issues with photos taken with a rotated phone, depending on the brand and software that it runs. Some phones will rotate the image in memory and write it to disc this way; others will simply write write the EXIF "rotation" data to the file header and leave it as is. This latter method is simply a flag to tell image editors and display software that the image needs to be rotated when displayed (the exact integer value written to the EXIF header determines the rotation value).

 

This is actually the technically preferred method, as it preserves the most pixel data in the image. However, it presents a number of problems. Firstly, if the software you use to display or edit the images doesn't read or understand the EXIF rotation data, your images will appear to be in the wrong orientation! Secondly, the act of editing and compressing an image almost always strips out the EXIF data, and depending on where and how this is done, it could result in the image displaying fine on your computer, but all screwed up online. And, even if you manage to edit and upload it with the EXIF data intact, most browsers don't read the EXIF data, and will simply display the image with the wrong orientation.

 

This is all pretty technical, but if you're interested in some further reading, this article is quite illuminating:

 

http://www.daveperre...ng-is-a-ghetto/

 

For everybody else, my apologies!

 

Kev


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#9 mywifehatesmodels

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 06:47 AM

^^^What he said^^^ :mental: :lol: :P


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#10 Iain (32SIG)

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 10:07 AM

Hi Iain,

 

I had no idea there was an ID models shark fin out there, I best be googling!

 

Cheers mate,

 

Craig

 

Hi Craig,

 

There isn't - Doug only pulled a few examples he tells me - don't know where the patterns are - don't think John 'Tigger' Wilkes has them?

 

Iain


1280-4.jpg

 

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#11 brahman104

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 10:46 AM

Hi Craig,

 

There isn't - Doug only pulled a few examples he tells me - don't know where the patterns are - don't think John 'Tigger' Wilkes has them?

 

Iain

Bugger, there's goes the easy(er) option! :(

 

Still it would be interesting to see how it would all line up. Looks like you'll have to have a crack at the title one day mate :)

 

Cheers,

 

Craig



#12 brahman104

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 10:48 AM

Thanks for the info on the pics too John and Kev. I think it maybe just more incentive for me to stop being lazy and use my proper camera to take pics. It actually has a macro lens after all!

 

Craig



#13 brahman104

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 11:11 AM

So I would definitely say at this point that I am "committed" to this approach now! After what seemed like forever running around with the scriber, I separated the front and rear fuselage from the centre part. The plastic is about 2mm thick in some places, so no wonder it took forever!

 

IMG_4129_zps771af0dd.jpg

 

IMG_4130_zpscea6dc94.jpg

 

Now I know a lot of people have commented on the accuracy (or otherwise) of the Richard J Caruna drawings from the Warpaint book. Still, when I had a look at them today, I reckon the outline for the shark fin rear fuselage is good enough for me to work with, and seems to scale up pretty well to the HK model, and that's good enough for me. The front might be a bit of a different matter, but what I did notice today is this:

 

IMG_4131_zps472915b3.jpg

 

On the Koster instructions, he indicates having to remove 3/8 of an inch (1/48 scale that is) from the forward fuselage aft of the nose section. In comparing photos between a D and an E - G, the nose profile seems to be pretty much the same. The it hit me that the position of the cockpit in relation to the engines is different. The later models had the cockpit moved further forward and the nose obviously added on the same again, which is why I couldn't see any difference until you look at the two examples in the above picture......

 

So this is good for the following reasons, a) the removal of the extra forward fuselage section was justified and B) if two different sources are indicating this, while it doesn't necessarily mean it's correct, it does give more credibility to each source, which is why I am now looking at using these drawings to plan the rear fuselage profile begin doing some building!

 

More to come, hopefully soon! 

 

 


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#14 Iain (32SIG)

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 11:41 AM

My understanding is different cockpit positions as well - though I've not looked at it for a looooong time.

 

You've got me thinking now - will see if I can dig out the vac in the next few days...

 

Great, and FAST, progress so far - great to see someone getting stuck in!

 

Iain


1280-4.jpg

 

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#15 brahman104

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 09:57 AM

Ok I'm back! It has been quite a while; a quick trip to the UK and a much needed clean up of the house and yard have kept me away from the bench for far too long.

 

Having said that I got to see TWO B-17's and more spitfires than I could count, so it was totally worth it!

 

Having said that I have been pondering the best way to attack this project. The external shape is obvious; master followed by vac, but I'm wondering about the internal details and I'm thinking that a few key formers could be made of brass and soldered to the four main longerons for strength, but then again I'm planning on making the skin fairly thick so as to withstand the fair amount of blending I foresee being required to line up with the existing kit parts.

 

Anyway, today's small amount of progress (sorry, but at least it's progress :) ) was the cutting out of the rear fuselage profile shape and the formers to act as guides to the final shaping once the rest is filled in with balsa. I've reduced the overall diameter by a 1mm or so to take into account the bog and thickness of the plastic when it gets formed so hopefully things will work out.

 

Here's the (very) rough shape

 

IMG_4236_zpsfd6aa5c8.jpg

 

I've made two profiles so they can be split in half for the forming as I seriously doubt my ability to cut a dead straight line down the track....

 

IMG_4237_zpsc582ffb9.jpg

 

And here she is lined up against the original fuse. The most forward former 'A,' will sit up against the back of the radio room so that's why it's sitting further forward than the original for the length comparison

 

IMG_4238_zpsb7339687.jpg

 

And so tomorrow, I should be able have the other side up to this stage and begin the blocking in and rough shaping. Yes, this is the easy part! :)

 

Thanks for looking and any comments or suggestions welcome (I'm really just stumbling around here so fire away!)

 

Craig


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